Author Topic: why is Mary, Queen of Scots seen as tragic?  (Read 27958 times)

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Offline Kurt Steiner

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Re: why is Mary, Queen of Scots seen as tragic?
« Reply #45 on: February 20, 2007, 05:54:10 AM »
But does that mean he deserved his death? The point I was making is that Queen Mary's death was termed "so unfair." Darnley's death, regardless of his personal characteristics, was "so unfair" also. And, if you use these terms of reference then Mary made her bed also so there was nothing unfair about her death, or tragic, just regretable. Besides her death has sparked a whole industry that was profitable, and still is, for artists, playwrights and authors. I think she would have enjoyed that.

Did Rizzio deserved his fateful end? Perhaps Darnely was no more guilty than the other pack of conspirators, but he was just unlucky. He wanted to be more than he was capable of and he payed the price of his failure. I'm afraid that I have no pity for him. Perhaps I'm too much on Mary's side.

Offline imperial angel

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Re: why is Mary, Queen of Scots seen as tragic?
« Reply #46 on: February 20, 2007, 08:55:16 AM »
Well, Darnley was out of his depth as king consort at that time in his life, in that country at least. Had he been given a few years to grow up, who knows? Still, like his wife who most likely belonged in France, he was out of his element. But another line of argument could see that both Darnley and Mary, Queen of Scots were responsible for their deaths. Mary could be seen as responsible because she did plot against Elizabeth, even though it was really a set up plot, something she didn't know. She did have traitorous intentions, at least as defined by that century. According to that law that I think Elizabeth had, ( which was intended to trap her, admittedly), she was guilty ( I don't remember the exact details, but those were the implications).

Then, with Darnley, he let his position go to his head and stirred up intrigue against his wife, like he was ruler of Scotland, not she, which culminated in the Rizzio murder. This was stupidity, and could even be regarded as the actions of a traitor. He was arrogant, and acted above his station. Of course, he lacked judgment, but so did Mary. Both their actions leading to their deaths could be regarded as arrogant, and traitorous. Yet, both their actions leading to their deaths can also been seen as unfair, something I will go into later. History can be seen many different ways sometimes, even when you are not dealing with ''what ifs'', and that's what makes it fun.

Offline James1941

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Re: why is Mary, Queen of Scots seen as tragic?
« Reply #47 on: February 20, 2007, 07:48:38 PM »
Of course Rizzio didn't derserve to be murdered. Yet Mary must share some of the blame. He was a foreigner in a very xenophobic land. By making him seem like he was an advisor and counsel and giving him too much personal access she set him up as a target. That doesn't excuse his death, just explains why it might have happened. And of course, there was the element of jealousy. Darnley listened to and probably believed the rumors that Rizzio was more than just the queen's good friend. Murders have happened over much less.

Offline ilyala

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Re: why is Mary, Queen of Scots seen as tragic?
« Reply #48 on: February 21, 2007, 04:14:02 AM »
darnley was plain stupid and the scottish noblemen did whatever they wanted with him. however, he tried to get more power, and rizzio's murder was part of the plan (it wasn't just the jealousy, it was also the fact that rizzio was in the way of anyone who wanted to control mary). darnley was a consort king trying to be come a regnant king. he tried and failed (due to his stupidity) and was punished. bothwell and mary were punished too for punishing him.

however, darnley was becoming very embarrassing for mary. he was just a stupid man trying to get his way and a weakness. through him as her husband, one way or the other, people could get to her. she couldn't divorce him without placing a doubt on james' fatherhood. i'm sure she must have felt like there was no other way. which while might not be an excuse morally speaking, was an excuse that worked great for other monarchs who got rid of their enemies and yet were much less blamed for it: catherine the great and peter 3rd (and ivan 6th), henry 4th of england and richard 2nd,  henry 3rd of france and henry of guise, henry 2nd of england and thomas becket, alexander 1st of russia and his father paul 1st,  even alexander the great was suspected of killing his father - philip 2nd -. we could also mention the tudors - and especially henry 8th - who felt threatened by many with a strong claim to the throne so they got rid of them in various ways. no-one ever mentions the fact that john lackland's nephew arthur of brittany died suspiciously while being in his 'care'. and i've never heard anybody talk about william 3rd (of england and holland) and his involvement in the death of the de witt brothers.

none of these monarchs get that shadow of assassination above their heads as mary does, even if her involvement in her husband's death was never proved and even though for many of these monarchs their agreement (at least) to these assassinations is much more obvious. my thought is that these monarchs (maybe with the exception of henry 3rd of france and john lackland) were generally successful as monarchs so people tend to close their eyes on the murders. however, everyone seems to emphasize on mary's involvement in her husband's death.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2007, 04:16:32 AM by ilyala »
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Offline imperial angel

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Re: why is Mary, Queen of Scots seen as tragic?
« Reply #49 on: February 21, 2007, 01:25:23 PM »
I don't think she was directly involved in her husband's death, because there were plenty of Scottish nobleman who could do something there. I think his death has become so notorious in history because she married Bothwell just after, when he was involved in her husband's death. It made her look like she had committed adultery and married her husband's murderer, even if she hadn't, which she didn't consider or didn't grasp. That was one of her more tragic choices. I certainly don't think she lost many tears over Darnley, but then again, I don't think she would have gone so far as to have him murdered either, even though she might not have frowned on it. I guess someone's life being unfair or not plays into how tragic they were perhaps..

palatine

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Re: why is Mary, Queen of Scots seen as tragic?
« Reply #50 on: February 21, 2007, 04:45:24 PM »
I don't think she was directly involved in her husband's death, because there were plenty of Scottish nobleman who could do something there. I think his death has become so notorious in history because she married Bothwell just after, when he was involved in her husband's death. It made her look like she had committed adultery and married her husband's murderer, even if she hadn't, which she didn't consider or didn't grasp. That was one of her more tragic choices. I certainly don't think she lost many tears over Darnley, but then again, I don't think she would have gone so far as to have him murdered either, even though she might not have frowned on it. I guess someone's life being unfair or not plays into how tragic they were perhaps..

I think that you might enjoy visiting the sites you’ll find at the following links - they have a lot of good information about Mary, Darnley, and Bothwell:

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/famous/lord_darnley/

http://www.marie-stuart.co.uk/

Offline Kimberly

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Re: why is Mary, Queen of Scots seen as tragic?
« Reply #51 on: March 08, 2007, 06:58:29 AM »
Here's some spooky trivia for you. The Talbot Hotel in Oundle has the original staircase from Fotheringhay Castle. It has a gouge in it supposedly caused by one of Mary's rings- she gripped the bannister hard as she descended to the room with the block in it. Her ghost can sometimes still be seen coming down these stairs. :o
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ferngully

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Re: why is Mary, Queen of Scots seen as tragic?
« Reply #52 on: March 10, 2007, 12:25:21 PM »
ooooooh. creepy

Offline imperial angel

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Re: why is Mary, Queen of Scots seen as tragic?
« Reply #53 on: March 14, 2007, 03:27:06 PM »
Here's some spooky trivia for you. The Talbot Hotel in Oundle has the original staircase from Fotheringhay Castle. It has a gouge in it supposedly caused by one of Mary's rings- she gripped the bannister hard as she descended to the room with the block in it. Her ghost can sometimes still be seen coming down these stairs. :o

Does anyone know of any other ghostly legends about her?

Bob_the_builder

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Re: why is Mary, Queen of Scots seen as tragic?
« Reply #54 on: May 20, 2007, 07:00:24 AM »
Mary, Queen of Scots was undoubtably murdered for her Catholic faith because Elizabeth the Protestant Queen felt threatened by her and the Catholic religion. Not to mention the fact that she was so brutally murdered. The better question would be, why would Mary Queen of Scots not be seen as tragic?

Offline Mari

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Re: why is Mary, Queen of Scots seen as tragic?
« Reply #55 on: May 22, 2007, 06:38:12 AM »
This is a good link for images of Mary, Queen of Scots
www.marileecody.com/marygosimages.html
Talking about Mary Stuarts choices and bad judgement calls, I have read several times now that The Earl of Bothwell under duress took her to Dunbar Castle in April, 1567. Mary wrote to the Bishop of Dunblane
"Albeit we found his doings rude, yet were his words and answers gentle." Even though She may have cared for Bothwell, perhaps She would have not married him. Then think of the outcome... ::)

Offline Kurt Steiner

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Re: why is Mary, Queen of Scots seen as tragic?
« Reply #56 on: May 23, 2007, 02:55:16 AM »
The link doesn't work... :(

Offline Mari

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Re: why is Mary, Queen of Scots seen as tragic?
« Reply #57 on: May 23, 2007, 06:02:54 AM »
I checked out the link...either you can click the images line  that she provides you or you can just go to www.marileecody.com and then click on Tudor images at the bottom. Either way works. I found them really interesting.
Mari   

Offline Silja

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Re: why is Mary, Queen of Scots seen as tragic?
« Reply #58 on: May 23, 2007, 04:50:01 PM »
Mary, Queen of Scots was undoubtably murdered for her Catholic faith because Elizabeth the Protestant Queen felt threatened by her and the Catholic religion.

Well, Mary was involved in an international plot to overthrow Elizabeth and replace her with Mary. So, it's not that the English Queen felt threatened. It wasn't her religion that brought Mary down but her plotting. Unlike some of her ministers, Elizabeth would never have had her executed for her religion. If you want to call Mary's death tragic than in the way that from her perspective she thought she had no other choice but to seek Elizabeth's death because it was her only real chance of escaping captivity.

Offline bell_the_cat

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Re: why is Mary, Queen of Scots seen as tragic?
« Reply #59 on: May 23, 2007, 05:49:21 PM »
I agree, Silja!
Never put off until tomorrow what you can put off until the day after tomorrow. (Mark Twain)