Ella and Sergei 2

[Превед]

And considering that he expelled all the Jews from Moscow, it's interesting as homosexuals is another group which often is portrayed as a secret cabal undermining society

Of course it says a lot about the differences between the Russian and German Empires that while this happened in Russia, a Jewish journalist (Maximilian Harden né Witkowski) was attacking the German monarchy by exposing Wilhelm II's two close associates Prince Philipp Eulenburg and Count Kuno Moltke as homosexuals.

[Eric_Lowe]

I have yet to read a bio that could reconcile Serge closeted homosexuality with his hatred of Jews (a hatred shared by his brother Tsar Alexander III).

[Kalafrana]

Where is the problem? They are two entirely separate characteristics.

Ann

[edubs31]

Where is the problem? They are two entirely separate characteristics.

Ann

Didn't want to be the first to say it, but thank you Ann. I was enjoying this discussion but confused by that comment as well.

That said, I have yet to reconcile my own heterosexuality with my hatred of rush hour traffic! :-)

Eric, mind clarifying your comment? I'm thinking you're trying to say something along the lines of, "isn't it hypocritical of Serge to subscribe to a minority lifestyle (homosexuality) while discriminating against other minorities (Jews)" ?

[Превед]

Perhaps he thought along the lines: Why should they be allowed to be different when I - the most powerful man in Russia after the Emperor - am not allowed to!?

[Eric_Lowe]

Indeed...both are against God in the Eastern Orthodox Church. Serge was supposed to be such a pious person...

[grandduchessella]

Where is the problem? They are two entirely separate characteristics.

Ann

Didn't want to be the first to say it, but thank you Ann. I was enjoying this discussion but confused by that comment as well.

That said, I have yet to reconcile my own heterosexuality with my hatred of rush hour traffic! :-)

Eric, mind clarifying your comment? I'm thinking you're trying to say something along the lines of, "isn't it hypocritical of Serge to subscribe to a minority lifestyle (homosexuality) while discriminating against other minorities (Jews)" ?

That's what I was taking from it--that someone who was a minority would be loathe to discriminate against another minority. But we see it frequently still--African-Americans, for instance, still oppose gay marriage and protections against discrimination based on sexual identity. Many get angry that the gay civil rights movement is equated at all with the black civil rights movement.

[Превед]

It kind of surprises me when the Orthodox church takes a stand against homosexuality, because I've always thought of it as quite otherwordly and fatalistic and more focused on atonement than prevention of sins, which strikes me as a very Occidental obsession - in Catholicism due to external rules laid down by the church hierarchy, in Protestantism due to a tormented internal consciousness, very much like what seems to may have been the case with Sergey Alexandrovich.

Seems very strange to obsess about homosexuality in a country still struggling to come to terms with Stalinist mass murder. I wonder what the Church thinks about Stalinism's harsh view of homosexuality as "bourgeois decadence"?

[Kalafrana]

We should also be aware that a person may have a particular characteristic and be very unhappy with that aspect of themselves. I think that was true of Sergei.

Ann

[JamesAPrattIII]

More from "Romanov Autumn" That I probably should have enclosed with my earlier post. It speculate Serge may not have been able to have children and may not have been a homosexual. It also points out while Serge did wear a corset sometimes this also does not make him a homosexual. Note: the Book "The Russian Army of the Napoleanic Wars (2) Philip Haythorinwaite mentions that some Russian officers did wear corsets back then to fit into their tight fitting dress uniforms. I believe I have read somewhere that in other countries some officers did this during the 1800s.

[Carolath Habsburg]

Thats true. There are also images of Gd Boris Vladimirovich (a well known "womanizer) wearing corset under his  uniform.

[Eric_Lowe]

I think his homosexuality was more repressed and psychological.

[Превед]

I think his homosexuality was more repressed and psychological.

There is non-psychological homosexuality? You mean like Men who have sex with men, Down-low, Prison sexuality or Gay-for-pay? Or homosexuality as opposed to homophilia ?

[Kalafrana]

Is Eric trying to say that he thinks Sergei was homosexual by orientation but non-practising?

Ann

[Eric_Lowe]

Could well be...His frustration could well be his meanness & coldness to some people.