Author Topic: Ella and Sergei 2  (Read 122665 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline ashanti01

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1570
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Re: Ella and Sergei 2
« Reply #75 on: December 04, 2009, 04:53:32 PM »
Eric, the material is only available in Russian, and its highly doubtful it will be published in English. Shame for I believe many would love to read these volumes on GD Sergei.

Offline MademoiselleAndrea

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 536
  • Take me as you find me, all my fears and failures.
    • View Profile
    • Past A La Mode: A Presentation and Celebration of Historical Fashion
Re: Ella and Sergei 2
« Reply #76 on: July 02, 2011, 11:40:02 AM »
At what date did Ella and Serge get engaged, and how long was their engagement? What sort of event did they announce it at? Sergei must have been visiting Hesse when he proposed. And did Ella tell her sisters beforehand, or was it a suprise? Any info about this pair's engagement would be very helpful, thanks in advance.  :)
When I stand before God at the end of my life, I would hope that I would not have a single bit of talent left, and could say, "I used everything You gave me". --Erma Bombeck

Offline Svetabel

  • Moderator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 4883
    • View Profile
    • http://svetabella.livejournal.com/
Re: Ella and Sergei 2
« Reply #77 on: July 02, 2011, 02:14:53 PM »
At what date did Ella and Serge get engaged, and how long was their engagement? What sort of event did they announce it at? Sergei must have been visiting Hesse when he proposed. And did Ella tell her sisters beforehand, or was it a suprise? Any info about this pair's engagement would be very helpful, thanks in advance.  :)

They  got engaged unofficially November 6 1883 year , when Sergei was in Darmstadt. Official announcement was in February 15 1884 and Sergei went to Darmstadt again for this event.
The engagement was not a surprise, the whole Hesse family was well aware of Sergei's plan but he was quite reluctant and was thinking very long.

(the dates are of Old Style)

Offline Eric_Lowe

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 16997
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Re: Ella and Sergei 2
« Reply #78 on: July 04, 2011, 04:19:55 PM »
Was there a promise that Ella made to her father that she would not switched churches ? If so it would explain the uproar from Grand Duke Ludwig & his younger daughter Irene (who wept at the news).

Offline Thomas_Hesse

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 683
    • View Profile
Re: Ella and Sergei 2
« Reply #79 on: July 05, 2011, 03:14:15 PM »
Was there a promise that Ella made to her father that she would not switched churches ? If so it would explain the uproar from Grand Duke Ludwig & his younger daughter Irene (who wept at the news).

I think that at the time of her marriage it was totally out of question that Ella should convert to orthodoxy. After a couple of years in Russia her attitude changed but it was not until her husband's appiontment to Govenor General and their move to the ancient capital of Moscow that she dared talking about it to her family.
There was no explicit promise but it was considered unthinkable to change deliberately - for Ella was not forced to do so (in distinction from her grand aunt Empress Maria Alexandrovna). It deeply hurt her father - there a couple of letters dealing with that matter.
Meine Kaiserin

Offline Eric_Lowe

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 16997
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Re: Ella and Sergei 2
« Reply #80 on: July 06, 2011, 08:22:25 AM »
Yes. I read the angry response from her father, the disappointment from Irene and the support from VMH. I wonder about how Ernie & Alix felt about it. One author wrote that "Only Princess Louis of Battenberg of her family sent encouragement to Ella".

Russka Princess

  • Guest
Re: Ella and Sergei 2
« Reply #81 on: July 31, 2011, 09:11:45 AM »
the whole Hesse family was proud protestants.. (Like im ;)  ) and they grow up in this religion and i think  it was scared  for Irene and their Father Ludwig IV to hear from a russian othodox..although the othodox people are christ aswell...

Offline Eric_Lowe

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 16997
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Re: Ella and Sergei 2
« Reply #82 on: August 02, 2011, 03:11:36 PM »
It is interesting that they felt so much uproar against Ella's conversion when their aunt (Empress Marie Alexandrovana) did convert to Orthodoxy, not to mention Ella was actually the third bride from Hesse to marry into Russia.

Offline grandduchessella

  • Global Moderator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 13039
  • Getting Ready to Move to Europe :D
    • View Profile
    • Facebook page
Re: Ella and Sergei 2
« Reply #83 on: August 02, 2011, 07:23:36 PM »
It is interesting that they felt so much uproar against Ella's conversion when their aunt (Empress Marie Alexandrovana) did convert to Orthodoxy, not to mention Ella was actually the third bride from Hesse to marry into Russia.

Not really. There are lots of things I might not like but might not overly care about if my aunt (or great-aunt in Irene's case) did that I would be very upset/angry about if it was one of my children. Is there any record stating that Ludwig was sanguine about his aunt's choice? Or the reaction of her brothers? Maybe there was consternation but it was overwhelmed by the thought of an Imperial throne.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2011, 07:25:12 PM by grandduchessella »
They also serve who only stand and wait--John Milton
Come visit on Pinterest--http://pinterest.com/lawrbk/

Offline Eric_Lowe

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 16997
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Re: Ella and Sergei 2
« Reply #84 on: August 03, 2011, 12:12:30 PM »
I don't think so. Alicky was offered that throne too, but Ludwig wasn't that keen on his daughter changing her religion after Ella did. It was only after her father death and his brother's marriage that made her change her mind. So much for the throne theory.

Offline grandduchessella

  • Global Moderator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 13039
  • Getting Ready to Move to Europe :D
    • View Profile
    • Facebook page
Re: Ella and Sergei 2
« Reply #85 on: August 03, 2011, 04:50:18 PM »
I was referring to MARIE'S parents or siblings not caring about changing her religion for a throne. Of course, her nephew (who was 4 years old when she married the Tsar) wouldn't have any say in the matter. Have you ever read anything from Marie's family stating their feelings one way or the other on the matter? And I was not putting forth a "throne theory"--it was just part of a line of inquery with the hope that some of our posters would have read something on the issue. I don't know one way or the other to form a theory about what the reaction of earlier Hesses might have had towards any religious conversion. Therefore, it is incorrect to automatically surmise that the wasn't consternation towards Marie's marriage unless something has been read of it. Of course, they may have been thrilled. That was my point.

Also, it would have been an accepted part of the deal for Marie's conversion--the Empress had to be Orthodox. Ella, like Miechen and Mavra, was married understanding they didn't need to convert and Ella maintained her Lutheranism for roughly 4 years afterwards. Perhaps Louis wouldn't have acquiesced to the wedding had he known that would happen. Again, I've only read of his post-conversion reactions. For many back then, a potential change in religion was a deal breaker in many royal marriage unless (and, again, not saying this was/wasn't the case with Marie) ambition over-road those concerns. Often, even then, compromises had to be struck.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2011, 08:44:52 PM by grandduchessella »
They also serve who only stand and wait--John Milton
Come visit on Pinterest--http://pinterest.com/lawrbk/

Offline Thomas_Hesse

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 683
    • View Profile
Re: Ella and Sergei 2
« Reply #86 on: August 04, 2011, 03:34:54 AM »
I was referring to MARIE'S parents or siblings not caring about changing her religion for a throne. Of course, her nephew (who was 4 years old when she married the Tsar) wouldn't have any say in the matter. Have you ever read anything from Marie's family stating their feelings one way or the other on the matter?

Do not think that the Hessians took that matter too easy in the previous generation. The Tzarevitch Alexander came to Darmstadt already in 1839 - after three days he would propose for the first time. The actual marriage took place not before 1841. the tender age of the Empress to be was certainly not the only reason for the Grand Duke to wait and hesitate so long.
Of course Marie's aunt had been an Empress of Russia already - so there was another close connection to that dynasty.
Meine Kaiserin

Offline Eric_Lowe

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 16997
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Re: Ella and Sergei 2
« Reply #87 on: August 04, 2011, 09:29:27 AM »
That make the case more interesting if religion wasn't that much of a bit deal in the Hesse family in general, Ludwig IV's tirade against his daughter became more unreasonable since it was done already in the past. I also believe that it was her father Alicky was thinking of when she said no to Nicky. Had Ludwig IV lived for another decade, Alicky would not have married into Russia. The combination of Queen Victoria (grandmother) & Ludwig IV (father) was too great for even Alicky to overcome despite the whole-hearted support from Ella. It is well to remember when Ella converted, "only" VMH sent encouragement. Alicky did not even dare to do that (not to mention the crying jets of Irene).

Offline grandduchessella

  • Global Moderator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 13039
  • Getting Ready to Move to Europe :D
    • View Profile
    • Facebook page
Re: Ella and Sergei 2
« Reply #88 on: August 04, 2011, 10:26:09 AM »
According to what Thomas wrote, it seems the opposite is true and that religion may have been an issue. (Correct me if I'm wrong please Thomas). He states that:

"Do not think that the Hessians took that matter too easy in the previous generation. "

and

"the tender age of the Empress to be was certainly not the only reason for the Grand Duke to wait and hesitate so long." (bold mine)
They also serve who only stand and wait--John Milton
Come visit on Pinterest--http://pinterest.com/lawrbk/

Offline Eric_Lowe

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 16997
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Re: Ella and Sergei 2
« Reply #89 on: August 06, 2011, 11:23:21 AM »
Yes, but they relented and Marie did marry and became empress. Whereas Alicky did not even dare to think about it during her father's lifetime. Maybe the unhappiness of Empress Marie Alexandrovna's later years may have something to do with it. Another reason may be that despite Ella's protests of happiness with Serge, some people did not buy into that (Grandmama Queen did have her doubts).