Author Topic: Ella and Sergei 2  (Read 123269 times)

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Offline matushka

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Re: Ella and Sergei 2
« Reply #105 on: November 20, 2013, 04:56:24 AM »
She was not the only one to provide for Marie and Dmitri. Quickly after GD Serguei's death, the Tsar took his right upon GD Paul's children and officially became their tutor with Ella.

Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Ella and Sergei 2
« Reply #106 on: November 20, 2013, 05:34:13 PM »
Well...Marie Paulovna would not be stuck in poverty because as a born Romanov, she would receive income from the Tsar as every member of his family does. Ella wanted to marry her off because she wanted to see her settled, I think she already detected a kind of restlessness in her young niece. Marie was smart to choose marriage as a way out, had she refused Wilhelm she would have to be under the nose of the Empress. She had seen enough of the lives of OTMA to not wanted to be thus confined. Dimitri did became the ward of the Tsar. But as a boy he could opt for Military Service and get more freedom from there, which he did.

Offline matushka

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Re: Ella and Sergei 2
« Reply #107 on: November 21, 2013, 04:19:22 AM »
Very strange argument. At the time Marie married, OTMA were little school girl of 11, 10, 8 and 6 yeard old. Alexandra was more or less healthy. I do not see any reason to speak of OTMA being "confined" in 1907, and it is certainly not the reason of Marie's choose.

Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Ella and Sergei 2
« Reply #108 on: November 21, 2013, 03:13:49 PM »
Alicky was more than a martinet than Ella was. If Marie chose not to marry Wilhelm, she would have to live with the IF under the watchful eye of the Empress. That was something that Marie did NOT want to do. That explained why her letters to Wilhelm of Sweden were mostly cheerful and happy that she would be free to choose her household and decorate her first homer. She loved the escape but not the person (her husband).

Offline JamesAPrattIII

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Re: Ella and Sergei 2
« Reply #109 on: December 20, 2013, 05:54:45 PM »
This is what the book "Romanov Autumn" which has a chapter on Serge:
On him forbidding Ella to read the book Anna Karenina. It has Serge being a well read man who knew all the Russian literary greats of his day. It all has that Tolstoy wanted Tsar Alexander III to show mercy on the killers of Alexander II and he sent the appeal to via Serge. The account of him not letting Ella read Anna Karenina comes from Paleologue's memoirs. It could be he was just repeating gossip. The article also points out that Serge as governor general of Moscow he was not the total incompetent he is sometimes described as. It refers to him as also being hard working, punishes corruption and fraud and secretly helping people. It also points out that there were many people who mourned his murder.

Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Ella and Sergei 2
« Reply #110 on: December 25, 2013, 06:54:59 PM »
Serge was always been controversial and not always on the bad side.

Offline Превед

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Re: Ella and Sergei 2
« Reply #111 on: January 01, 2014, 06:24:30 AM »
With regard to Sergey's Alexandrovich's alleged homosexuality I'm surprised that nobody is discussing the sources mentioned in his Russian Wikipedia article:

"Нина Берберова в биографии современника князя композитора П. И. Чайковского, известного своей гомосексуальностью[36], упоминала такой эпизод: «Известен один случай с человеком, знакомым довольно многим, преподавателем латыни и греческого, любовником московского губернатора, вел. кн. Сергея Александровича (брата Александра Третьего), которого судили и которому дали три года „изгнания“ в Саратов, а затем вернули в Москву».[37]

Сексолог Игорь Кон утверждал (1997), что Сергей Александрович вёл открыто гомосексуальный образ жизни, приведя в качестве примера запись из дневника современника великого князя, известного гомосексуалиста министра иностранных дел графа Владимира Ламсдорфа, сделанную через месяц после назначения того московским генерал-губернатором (игра слов: русское слово «бугор» — созвучно испорченному франц. bougre — «содомит»)[38][39].

    По городу циркулируют два новых анекдота: «Москва стояла до сих пор на семи холмах, а теперь должна стоять на одном бугре» (фр. bougr'e). Это говорят, намекая на великого князя Сергея.

    — В. Н. Ламздорф, дневниковая запись от 26 апреля 1891[40]

=

Nina Berberova in her biography of the Grand Duke's contemporary, the composer Tchaikovsky, known for his homosexuality [36] mentions the episode " one known case of a person familiar to quite many, a teacher of Latin and Greek, a lover of the Governor of Moscow, Grand Duke Sergey Alexandrovich (brother of Alexander III ) , who was tried and sentenced to three years' exile' in Saratov, and then returned to Moscow ". [37]

Sexologist Igor Kon argued (1997) that Sergey led an openly homosexual lifestyle , citing as an example an entry from the diary of a contemporary of the grand duke , the famous gay foreign minister Count Vladimir Lambsdorff made ​​one month after the appointment of the Governor- General of Moscow. (Pun : Russian word бугре, hill (in instrumental case) - French word bougre (bugger, sodomite )) [38 ] [ 39].

"There circulates through the city a new joke: "Moscow was standing on seven hills , and now must stand on one hill / bugger". That said , alluding to the Grand Duke Sergey."

 - V.N. Lambsdorff, diary entry of 26 April 1891 [40]
« Last Edit: January 01, 2014, 06:37:15 AM by Превед »
Берёзы севера мне милы,—
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: «Ивы и берёзы», 1843 / 1856)

Offline Svetabel

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Re: Ella and Sergei 2
« Reply #112 on: January 01, 2014, 12:25:18 PM »
As always - only rumors and nothing more. Someone who said to someone who had said to someone who had said to someone who...and so on. No names, no real facts, no details, no real episodes,no photos...Nothing more! Only people who collect rumors and say about that with aplombe. Nina Berberova as a respectful source?? sorry, sounds funny.

Offline Превед

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Re: Ella and Sergei 2
« Reply #113 on: January 01, 2014, 02:22:28 PM »
As always - only rumors and nothing more.

True, but it's interesting if "tout Moscou" joked that their new governor-general was a homosexual! And considering that he expelled all the Jews from Moscow, it's interesting as homosexuals is another group which often is portrayed as a secret cabal undermining society (not at least in the propaganda of Sergey's successor as the never-smiling man in the Kremlin).
I guess it kind of boils down to what political axe did Count Lamsdorf have to grind (was he a liberal?) and how good was his gaydar!

Quote
Nina Berberova as a respectful source?? sorry, sounds funny.

Why? You think she linked it to Sergey Alexandrovich just to make Tchaikovsky's homosexuality (which she was the first portray) more palatable?

« Last Edit: January 01, 2014, 02:41:28 PM by Превед »
Берёзы севера мне милы,—
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: «Ивы и берёзы», 1843 / 1856)

Offline Svetabel

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Re: Ella and Sergei 2
« Reply #114 on: January 01, 2014, 02:41:13 PM »
As always - only rumors and nothing more.

True, but it's interesting if "tout Moscou" joked that their new governor-general was a homosexual!

Quote
Nina Berberova as a respectful source?? sorry, sounds funny.

Why? You think she linked it to Sergey Alexandrovich just to make Tchaikosvsky's homosexuality (which she was the first portray) more palatable?



The whole high-society of Moscow and St-Petersburg joked about Grand Duke and his manners as well as character and personal life, but there were only rumors, nobody knew the true so they imagined whatever they wanted.
We has been discussing this hot-issue for years here, just wait a minute and our Eric Lowe will jump at your re-opening of this discussion and we have a "brand new" repeating of the same "truths".

Nina Berberova was a fiction-like writer actually, her literature is not scholarly.

Offline Превед

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Re: Ella and Sergei 2
« Reply #115 on: January 01, 2014, 02:55:14 PM »
The whole high-society of Moscow and St-Petersburg joked about Grand Duke and his manners as well as character and personal life, but there were only rumors, nobody knew the true so they imagined whatever they wanted.

The Okhrana must have known. (And those who had access to its information.) If Sergey, like KR had relationships with bathhouse attendants / male prostitutes there would be several who knew (and would talk for money. Of course there was no gutter press in Imperial Russia, so the money would only be to obtain information for surveillance or blackmail.)

That's the interesting thing: If denied (or denying themselves) the possibility to have a relationship with someone of approximately their own social standing, e.g. a fellow officer, who could be expected to behave according to a certain code of conduct and would have as much to lose from disclosure as the royal himself, these allegedly homo- or bisexual royals, just like gay Catholic priests, ressorted to partners (youngsters, sometimes even children) from lower social classes, who could be bought and bribed to remain silent - untill someone offered a bigger bribe!

I think Tchaikovsky was an example of all those strategies, he both had (platonic) relationships with social equals, with young peasants and perhaps also with "lower-class urban types" like a cab driver.

Quote
We has been discussing this hot-issue for years here, just wait a minute and our Eric Lowe will jump at your re-opening of this discussion and we have a "brand new" repeating of the same "truths".
Eric Lowe has nothing to add to discussion when he ignores the wider social mechanics of Imperial Russia and only theorizes based on the dynamics within the royal clan, as if there was Ebenbürtigkeit in homosexual royal relations too!
« Last Edit: January 01, 2014, 03:03:31 PM by Превед »
Берёзы севера мне милы,—
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: «Ивы и берёзы», 1843 / 1856)

Offline Svetabel

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Re: Ella and Sergei 2
« Reply #116 on: January 01, 2014, 03:06:00 PM »
The whole high-society of Moscow and St-Petersburg joked about Grand Duke and his manners as well as character and personal life, but there were only rumors, nobody knew the true so they imagined whatever they wanted.

The Okhrana must have known. (And those who had access to its information.) If Sergey, like KR had relationships with bathhouse attendants / male prostitutes there would be several who knew (and would talk for money). That's the interesting thing: If denied (or denying themselves) the possibility to have a relationship with someone of approximately their own social standing, e.g. a fellow officer, who could be expected to behave according to a certain code of conduct and would have as much to lose from disclosure as the royal himself, these allegedly homo- or bisexual royals, just like gay Catholic priests, ressorted to partners (youngsters, sometimes even children) from lower social classes, who could be bought and bribed to remain silent - untill someone offered a bigger bribe!

I think Tchaikovsky was an example of all those strategies, he both had (platonic) relationships with social equals, with young peasants and perhaps also with "lower-class urban types" like a cab driver.



True, the Okhrana must have khown. But ALL dirty things from its Archives on Grand Dukes and Romanovs must have been published in the Soviet period already! Just think what a fruity subject for anti-Romanov propaganda, just as documents on Rasputin...But such documents on GD Sergei have ever been found or published? No. Till now the researchers have a bit of resources on GDuke's personal life.

Offline Превед

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Re: Ella and Sergei 2
« Reply #117 on: January 01, 2014, 03:15:07 PM »
But ALL dirty things from its Archives on Grand Dukes and Romanovs must have been published in the Soviet period already! Just think what a fruity subject for anti-Romanov propaganda, just as documents on Rasputin...But such documents on GD Sergei have ever been found or published? No. Till now the researchers have a bit of resources on GDuke's personal life.

Oh, good point, did the Soviets really search through the archives looking for such?
« Last Edit: January 01, 2014, 03:17:25 PM by Превед »
Берёзы севера мне милы,—
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: «Ивы и берёзы», 1843 / 1856)

Offline Svetabel

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Re: Ella and Sergei 2
« Reply #118 on: January 01, 2014, 03:26:14 PM »
But ALL dirty things from its Archives on Grand Dukes and Romanovs must have been published in the Soviet period already! Just think what a fruity subject for anti-Romanov propaganda, just as documents on Rasputin...But such documents on GD Sergei have ever been found or published? No. Till now the researchers have a bit of resources on GDuke's personal life.

Oh, good point, did the Soviets really search through the archives looking for such?

Of course. At least the Archives of the Okhranka were a good source on all underside of the Romanovs. A lot of documents were destroyed, obviuosly, but not all. The Grand Duke was a political figure, it's hard to pass by him easily in the history, and also he was killed by a so-to-say "revolutioner", his life and dirty facts on him were important for the Soviets.

Offline Превед

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Re: Ella and Sergei 2
« Reply #119 on: January 01, 2014, 03:51:55 PM »
Of course. At least the Archives of the Okhranka were a good source on all underside of the Romanovs.
Lol, it's kind of hilarious to imagine Stalin as the first Romanov researcher / curious, combing the Okhrana files for details of their personal lives. He must have had a fit if he discovered that fellow romantic poet KR was bisexual.


« Last Edit: January 01, 2014, 03:54:47 PM by Превед »
Берёзы севера мне милы,—
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: «Ивы и берёзы», 1843 / 1856)