Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I

[Teddy]

What i find strange is that Cecilie did regonize "Fraulein Unbekantt"as Anastasia!

But never in all history books about the Romanovs i ever read they ever met eachother in reallife (Cecilie and the real Anastasia).

Did they ever met eachother before 1914?

[Eurohistory]

Listen, at the time many of the family's extended family members, many of them had not seen the Tsar's children for well over a decade, allowed themselves to be convinced by the impostor and the entire Anastasia hoax.

Even the late Prince Sigismund of Prussia, a first cousin of the Tsar's children, who had last seen Anastasia when she was only 11 years of age, fell for Fraulein Unbekannt.  This position was strengthened by the support Sigismund's brother-in-law, Prince Saxe-Altenburg, gave to Anna's claims.  However, had Sigismund lived long enought to witness DNA studies and everything else that has happened with this case since his 1978 death, (and I quote) "My father would have been disappointed to know that he was duped by this lady...there is no way he could have believed in her case with all the information available today." - Prince Alfred of Prussia.

Arturo Beéche

[HerrKaiser]

Yes, Arturo, but (while this dialog is heavily discussed on another thread) I continue to be amazed at the belief, even before DNA, that a person would NOT be recognizeable after such a time. Nearly every pre-movie screen entertainment shows grade school pics of celebs to see if the audience can identify. And most of the time, they are dead ringers. People do not change so much from age 11 to 18 to not be recognized! Even after a trauma. I find the hoax by Anna to have been furthered by people willing to ID her who may have had something to gain as well.

[grandduchessella]

I don't know. While I never believed AA was Anastasia, time and trauma can do things to a person. Look at how much Alexandra aged in such a short time. And if she was supposed to have escaped the butchery in there, it would've made sense that her face may have suffered a good deal of trauma--perhaps smashed by rifle butts, etc....Plus the physical trauma of imprisonment and then 10 years 'on the run'. It seems most people's tentative ID of her rested on the eyes. And I'm a big celeb watcher and I usually one get about 3/4 of those IDs right!  

[HerrKaiser]

Hehehe! I too like to watch celebs and get most correct in matching the old and new pics. Severe traumas do wreck a person's appearance. But, even presidents, prisoners who get locked up as young people, even accident victims, retain a certain ID that, at worst, computer aging techniques could validate. It is not like Anastasia's ID was attempting to match her looks at 11 or 15 to 55 or 60; it was really quite a short time in terms of physical changes.
Nonetheless, poor AA and the real story of who she was is more interesting than her claim. Somehow, she crafted a near-perfect tale of facts and details that set the entire world arguing for 80 years. I think AA was an accomplise to one or more of the executioners, aided the dying Anastasia, downloaded tons of info from the grand duchess, and adopted Anastasia's ID. The real fate, hence, of Anastasia would be the big question in this scenario.
But, back to dear Cecilie....
What did Cecilie do during the second world war? Did she know Count von Stauffenburg and the other royal plotters against Hitler?

[Eurohistory]

Cecilie remainined in Prussia until it was due time to leave Potsdam for the West.

Her eldest surviving son, Prince Louis Ferdinand, left Schloß Cadinen as the Russians approached and moved his family to Cecilienhof where Cecilie awaited them.  From here they left to the north of Germany, where they felt safe.

Cecilie's nephew, Duke Christian Ludwig of Mecklenburg-Schwerin suffered a different fate.  Initially he left with his parents, who received refuge at Louisenlund, a Schleswig-Holstein property, but then Christian Ludwig decided to make one last return to Schwerin to retrieve more family heirlooms.  Unfortunately he was caught while doing so and sent to a prisoner of war camp in Russia.  For almost ten years he was feared lost/killed until in the 1950's he reappeared among a contingent of prisoners of war  exchanged between the Soviet Union and the Allies.  Kiki, as Christian Ludwig was known within the family circle, was a very nice man.

Arturo Beéche

[Hellfire]

Princess Cecilie has always captivated me so i was wondering if i can have more information concerning her from her parents to her childhood and if she ever have a relationship with OTMAA or with Nicholas II or Alexandra  or anyother member with the Romanov's?  

and if there are pictures of her and her family her husband, children and any member of the Romanov family?

[grandduchessella]

I don't think she ever had much, if any contact, with NAOTMAA. She didn't marry until 1905 and Germany & Russia were at war 9 yrs later. However, her mother WAS a Romanov so she may indeed have. I've never seen any photo evidence though--maybe someone else? Anyway, her mother was GDss Anastasia Mikhailovna--one of the numerous Mikhailovichi but the only daughter. There's some info on her in the Olga Fyodorovna thread and one on Anastasia herself. I don't think I've ever even seen photos of Cecile with any of her Romanov uncles or cousins. She wrote her memoirs (which I don't have) so there could be some good information in there. I have been reading the serialization of it (only 3 chapters out so far) and the only hint I've gotten was when she refers to writing more later about her 'dear grandfather' (GD Michael) so she must've seen him somewhat. She doesn't write much of her grandmother--at least so far.

[HerrKaiser]

The famous cousins, aunts, uncles, second cousins etc among the European royals, in general, did not gather the way most "real" families do at Christmas and Easter dinner etc. The royal relations were, by current definition, somewhat disfunctional in that while they were blood relations, they had hostilities brewing and being acted on regularly. The disfunctions were escaled by virtue of the fact they almost exclusively intermarried. So while we Americans, in particular, wouls tend to assume the royals of our discussions would be calling, visiting, writing, vacationing etc with each other all the time, it was rare they enjoyed each other's company.

[grandduchessella]

The famous cousins, aunts, uncles, second cousins etc among the European royals, in general, did not gather the way most "real" families do at Christmas and Easter dinner etc. The royal relations were, by current definition, somewhat disfunctional in that while they were blood relations, they had hostilities brewing and being acted on regularly. The disfunctions were escaled by virtue of the fact they almost exclusively intermarried. So while we Americans, in particular, wouls tend to assume the royals of our discussions would be calling, visiting, writing, vacationing etc with each other all the time, it was rare they enjoyed each other's company.

I don't know....I was going by the large family gatherings of QV's extended family 'The Royal Mob' and by Christian IX's gatherings of his family. They seem to have met, in some form or another, quite frequently. QV's letters are full of whose coming to visit, whose just leaving, etc...Some of her grandchildren spent almost the entire summer with her. Also, the Court Circulars are full of various relatives coming and going either to see her or Bertie and Alexandra. And for the most part they seemed to be happy occasions. (Although one trip of Fritz & Vicky was ruined by the Schleswig-Holstein crisis with F&V and Bertie & Alexandra 'getting into it' until QV finally said 'no more!')

[HerrKaiser]

Ah yes, all that makes sense and tracks. I wonder how "relatives" could, especially given they traded places so frequently and became "loyal" to different nations, get to a point of such severe anger and hostility to allow their ministers to opt for wars or other tough actions. Seems like the interrlations of the royals would have averted such tragedies.

[grandduchessella]

Seems like all it accomplished was a lot of pain for all sides.   It was originally hoped, esp by Prince Albert, that a related royal Europe would allow for peace and progressive thought. Unfortunately for that lofty goal, forces beyond personal control would prevent personal relationships from mattering all that much.

[Rhon]

I just received a book called "Gathered Yesterdays" by Leila von Meister, a distant cousin. She and her husband apparently moved in high society circles and she actually attended the wedding of the Crown Prince and the lady she called, "Duchess Cecilia". She described her as having "a most amiable and captivating smile, revealing a delightful personality". She also wrote that it was so hot in the chapel that "it oozed heat".  There are several pages of descriptions of the event and it would be a good book for anyone who'd like to read about the German court before and during WWI.

Rhon

[HerrKaiser]

Thanks Rhon. That book sounds wonderful; but not showing up on Amazon or other sources I checked. Is if published in Europe?

[Rhon]

I heard about the book during my correspondence with the Adams Davidson Galleries regarding a portrait which turned out to be of the mother of the author, Leila Trapmann von Meister. I was able to order the book through Alibris, an online bookseller of rare and hard to find books. Leila's husband, Wilhelm von Meister, was apparently a German official called a "Landrant" in Homburg.  She writes about having the Kaiser at her home and various social activities, including a 1900 visit to meet Empress Frederick at Friedrichshof, which she described in detail. To quote a bit from that part of the book: "

"In appearance, she is very like Queen Victoria, only I should say better-looking, though of course I can't remember the Queen as anything but a very old lady. Still, I fancy as a younger woman the Empress must have had more looks and certainly very great charm, for this is still abundantly present in her clear straightforward eyes and her kind and gracious smile. You feel in the presence of a very distinguished Grande Dame."

I'm not at all knowledgeable about Imperial Germany, but I'm finding Leila's memoirs very interesting and I think anyone on this board would like to read the book, though it might be hard to find. Try Alibris or abebooks.com; I've had done business with both of them and found them to be reliable.

Rhon

The book was published in 1963 in London by Geoffrey Bles.