Crownprince Wilhelm & Crownprincess Cecilie, their family, Part I

[Bernardino]

Thank you for the reply  ...

Do you know if the grand-children of Pr Friedrich are considered Princes in Britain?

[Marlene]

Thank you for the reply  ...

Do you know if the grand-children of Pr Friedrich are considered Princes in Britain?

No, they are not.  They use the surname von Preussen

[Bernardino]

Oh so these non-dynastic British Hohenzollerns are X/Y von Preussen and the German ones are X/Y Prinz/Prinzessin von Preussen...

[HerrKaiser]

Celebration time! This month is the 100th anniverary of the maiden voyage of the Kronprinzessin Cecilie from Bremerhaven to New York. The fabulous 4-stacker name sake of the princess was one of the most, if not the most, luxurious ship of her time and even had private dining rooms within the more expensive suites in first class. American millionaires and European royalty loved the ship. Orville and Wilbur Wright, ironically, crossed on the ship in 1909 after having spent much time in Germany gaining engineering expertise and help from German aero engineers. There is no documentation, however, that Cecilie herself sailed on the ship.

[Learning]

Cecilie lived in Potsdam until the Russians came, correct? Where did she live afterwards? Was she able to maintain any style or was she destitute like the rest of Germany?

[dmitri]

Yes Cecilie lived in Schloss Cecilienhof at Potsdam until forced to flee the incoming Soviet troops. Although living in reduced circumstances later in life she could hardly be called destitute. She is buried next to her estranged husband in the garden cemetery of Schloss Hohenzollern above Hechingen in Germany. She had lived not far away. 

[grandduchessella]

Wasn't there also an issue of renunciation? The various German Kings, Princes and Dukes all had that as part of their agreements. I don't think Karl & Zita did (and Karl made his disastrous attempt at return) and thus lost everything. I think some of the Austrian Archdukes/duchesses who did swear allegiance to the new government retained some properties and monies.

[HerrKaiser]

Wasn't there also an issue of renunciation? The various German Kings, Princes and Dukes all had that as part of their agreements. I don't think Karl & Zita did (and Karl made his disastrous attempt at return) and thus lost everything. I think some of the Austrian Archdukes/duchesses who did swear allegiance to the new government retained some properties and monies.

Yes, the gernman nobility essentially "settled out" of the disastrous turmoil and saved for themselves a decent lifestyle of reasonable wealth. Essentially, as in the courts today, it was smarter to settle for something than risk a fight and lose everything as was with the Austrians.

Cecilie did make Cecilienhof her residence between the wars and during WWII. While the Hohenzollerns did lose the vast majority of their wealth and riches, they were hardly destitute by any measure. Some relatives did not fare so well, but those who had business ties or who had parlayed their property wealth into other investments did OK by any measure. The key reason the German royals were able to get something of their wealth was that the German communist revolution, while bringing an end to German involvemetn in the war and crumbling the autocracy, did not take hold due to the counter revolutionary will of the general poplulation. so, unlike the Romanovs, the Hohenzollerns saved their lives and some cash.

The invading and murderous Russian army at the end of WWII forced Cecilie to flee for her life from her namesake home of 25 years. Ceclienhof was not destroyed by bombs, and like nearly all structures that were liveable, the Allies confiscated the property for their own needs. This happened all over the nation; homes of Germans were taken over with no compensation given to owners and the owners left to fend for themselves in a land of rubble and ash.

Cecliie went to live near her son Louis Ferdinand near Stuttgart after her flight from Potsdam. She remained there until her death in the mid 1950s and is buried near the crown prince in the Hohenzollern castle not too far from Hechingen in Baden.

Louis Ferdinand was blessed with a long life and had the grand opportunity to be the guest of honor at the rededication of the Berlin Catherdral in 1994. The structure was destroyed in WWII and after 50 years, was painstakingly restored to its original grandeur. Louis was at the services of dedication along with Helmut Kohl and other notables. It was a moment of having gone full circle for this man.

Interestingly, Louis would have been 100 this year. he died exactly 13 years ago tomorrow at age 87. His birth date is November 9, the day the Berlin Wall was broken through by citizens in 1989.

[HerrKaiser]

Partly due, it would seem, to her renowned beauty and photogenic qualities, the crown princess' portrait photographers positioned her in innovative, new poses that for the time were revolutionary in terms of design and the art of portrait photography. two good examples kneeling on a chair and on the floor with her young boys.

[dmitri]

It is worth noting that the Berlin Cathedral was not destroyed like the Frauenkirche in Dresden. The outer walls were all still intact. It was not such a difficult task to restore the inside. The Nazi German state was responsible for the destruction of Germany. It was a huge mistake and was only possible due to the destruction of the Hohenzollern monarchy and then the Weimar Republic. It was a huge disaster for the German people and the rest of Europe.

[HerrKaiser]

It is worth noting that the Berlin Cathedral was not destroyed like the Frauenkirche in Dresden. The outer walls were all still intact. It was not such a difficult task to restore the inside.

the outer walls were structural. It is not true that the task of restoring the inside was 'not such a difficult task'. It was a VERY difficult task to restore and rebuild details that were nearly impossible to replicate after almost 100 years. Materials alone were hard to duplicate much less the craftsmenship to do the artful restoration.

the frauenkirche was a total loss, walls included, and less time to reconstruct. I was deepling involved with the Frauenkirche rebuild, mostly due to funding. but comparing the two buildings is irrelevant to the point.

[Espella]

Thank you HerrKaiser for that detailed response.  It must be nice to renounce your title, keep your castles and money and continue to call yourself Grand Duke ...  You're probably right that the Zollerns and the other dukes didn't have the Communists breathing down their necks, but I still think there was a bit of leniency.  The Americans and French probably didn't give a whit about the castles as long as reparations were made which history says were horrendous.  That leaves the British, and I think the family connectedness of everyone allowed the Germans to basically keep everything. 

Did the Zollerns sell Ceceliehof and the other hofs and that's why they're hotels now?

[dmitri]

The restoration of the Berliner Dom was not a difficult task. Far more difficult work was done elsewhere. 

[HerrKaiser]

Thank you HerrKaiser for that detailed response.  It must be nice to renounce your title, keep your castles and money and continue to call yourself Grand Duke ...  You're probably right that the Zollerns and the other dukes didn't have the Communists breathing down their necks, but I still think there was a bit of leniency.  The Americans and French probably didn't give a whit about the castles as long as reparations were made which history says were horrendous.  That leaves the British, and I think the family connectedness of everyone allowed the Germans to basically keep everything. 

Did the Zollerns sell Ceceliehof and the other hofs and that's why they're hotels now?

thanks Espella. However, the Brits did NOTHING to assist there relatives or the German people in general; the Hohenzollerns were basically on their own to deal with their losses the best they could. Money and saving ones' own skin does funny things to people and nations. A very few Brits, realizining the devasstation unleashed upon a civiliian population unlike any other in human history, came forth and provided some sense of compassion, but it was the American Marshalll Plan that did the most good. the main beneficiary of the Marshalll plan was England (hello! can we spell pork barrel?), but it did benefit Germany too. the Windsors (aka Saxe Coburgs) turned a blind eye to the misery of their relatives on the continent...again, just like in WWI.

Today and since 1945, the conventioinal wisdom is the Germany "deserved" all the terror bombing, civilian killings, etc because of the Holocaust. Makes sense except no one knew of the Holocaust until AFTER the war was essentially over. hmmmmm. If judged by today's standards, Churchill and Harris would be war criminals in the view of the common man. Any anti war person worth his/her salt is horrified by the milliions of civilian deaths in Germany wrought by the carpet bombing/terror bombing strategy intended to kill civilians and destroy EVERYTHING, military or not. Germany and the Nazis were the cause, but the civilians--and architecture--  bore the brunt of their sins.

Anyway, the Allies did get their reparations and Germany paid through the nose...even to this day or at least recently. My last Audi purchase had a line item on the invoice for war reparations..in 1994.

I'm not sure who recieved sales dollars for any properties sold after the war. Kronberg, for example, was regained by the Hesse Darmstadt family, I believe. Now a fabulous hotel. Cecilienhof is very luxurious hotel as well. Not sure who owns it, but the hotelier Kempinski does an excellent job at converting former, destroyed glory to current wonders such as the Wettin palace in Dresden Taschenbergpalais.

[Learning]

Anyway, the Allies did get their reparations and Germany paid through the nose...even to this day or at least recently. My last Audi purchase had a line item on the invoice for war reparations..in 1994.

Huh? I thought reparations were forgiven when the US needed German help during the Cold War? And, were reparations taxes on individuals? I thought that they were payments by the government.