Author Topic: Anna Anderson and Anastasia  (Read 230190 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline BobAtchison

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 896
    • View Profile
    • The Alexander Palace
Re: Anna Anderson and Anastasia
« Reply #45 on: April 30, 2004, 08:56:18 AM »
Toothless, homely, unsophisticated and poor, Anna/Franziska was an unlikely candidate for the fame she received. Coming from humble, even what we would call 'backwoods' or 'red-neck' origins, she ended up circulating in the highest circles of society and gained true celebrity status.  She had beautiful clothes, furs, expensive accessories - high-born men paid court to her.  She loved the glamour and the attention she received.

Anna/Franzinska was a con-artist from the beginning.  She may not have been educated but she was street smart, cunning and willing to take huge risks.  She knew she was lying all along and no fool.  Her family knew the lies she was telling but they stood back in awe of what she had achieved and decided not to oppose her. Her lies made her one of the most famous characters in the 20th century - hey, she even had a stage play and movie done about her - and Ingrid Bergman played her!  What a compliment that would have been - one of the most beautiful woman of the time playing you.

For her entourage of followers she must have felt a mixture of contempt and conspiratorial pride that she had attracted a mafia-like cadre of supporters. Some of them must have grown to realize she was a fraud, but they either stayed with her for the 'ride' or were afraid to admit they had been wrong about her.

It takes a strong, manipulative even criminal mind to be able to pull off the deception Anna/Franziska did.  I think it started out small and just got - to her excitement, fear and delight - bigger and bigger.  The more attention she received the bigger the stakes and the bigger the reward.  Anna/Franziska was one smart cookie, she knew what to do to cover her tracks and she was willing to do whatever the cost to keep it going.  She was utterly indifferent to what happened to her supporters, or what they paid emotionally or financially for their adherence to her cause.  A successful con-artist cares nothing for her victims.  There are plenty of examples of such people today.

The true story of Franziska is worthy of a great movie for she was
one of the greatest frauds in modern times.  It's not only a story about her, it's also about her victims....

Bob
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by BobAtchison »

butterball

  • Guest
Re: Anna Anderson and Anastasia
« Reply #46 on: April 30, 2004, 11:15:04 AM »
 isn't it possible that the poor woman having become traumatized...tried to kill herself and then having failed that ...accepted a new life as a lost but glamourous GD - she may not have even innitially intended to lie...she may have actually forgotten that she was Fransiska ?  

a real metamorphosis so to speack        

Offline BobAtchison

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 896
    • View Profile
    • The Alexander Palace
Re: Anna Anderson and Anastasia
« Reply #47 on: April 30, 2004, 12:22:56 PM »
We all need to watch for con-artists out there - you never know when these wolves in sheep's clothing will appear and make you their next victim.  Here's some advice I found on the web:

SIGNALS THAT SHOULD MAKE YOU SUSPICIOUS

Most people are probably not going to fall for the short con of the carnival barker, at least not more than once.  It is the Long Con - the well laid out plan of a shrewd talker and planner that will trap the truly unsuspecting - like the Microsoft executive, like the Eiffel Tower purchaser.  These are the people that do the serious damage and who must be guarded against.  

You cannot buy a security system to protect yourself from these people.  The only security system you have is your good judgment - something that is not always up to par when you are financially desperate or painfully lonely.  Therefore, here are some warning signals that should be heeded when you are vulnerable and a stranger or even a friend that you do not really know a lot about starts making plans for your money:

 "I'll Never Steal from You"  

(1)  Beware of the person who says, "I'll never steal from you," when discussing the "plan."  That's like saying, "I'll never throw food in your face."   If they feel the need to bring this up, it means they are actually imaging the act of throwing food in your face - or stealing from you. Responsible, honest people wouldn't even think the thought. 

"Any Day Now..."        
 
(2)  Beware of the person who says, "We're almost there,"  over and over and over and over, or any variation of this concept, such as "Any day now,"  "We've got to get this show on the road," "Next month, I'm going to....", "My big check will be here any day"...The con artist will stretch this anticipation out as long as you will tolerate it.  When the con man suspects you have finally had enough, he will spring his trap and disappear with your money. 

Most victims will allow this procrastination to extend long beyond a common sense deadline because THEY DON'T WANT TO KNOW THE TRUTH.  Their denial is no different than denial by a spouse who suspects infidelity in their mate.  The financial and emotional losses that will result when the truth is acknowledged are too painful to face.  As long as the truth is denied, maybe it really isn't the truth.  Inevitably, the con artist will help the victim face the cruel reality of the truth by fleeing with all the money that his allotted time would allow him to collect.

The Contract that Is Supposed to "Protect" You

 (3)  The richest man in America knew the value of a contract even when he was a kid.  Bill Gates actually convinced his sister to sign a contract securing some mutual agreement between them when they were still school kids living at home.  He no doubt recognized that the enforcers of legal contracts - the law (in this case, his parents) would have the power to require fulfillment of the terms if necessary.  However, this law is only good for law abiders.  I have watched a doctor who lost approximately $1400 in a Small Claims Court judgment go from "Oh well, do I pay this at the court clerk's window?" to "Never mind, I'll talk to my attorney and get back to you." when he was advised by the judge that it was the plaintiff's responsibility, not the court's, to collect the money.  

Enforcement of laws comes in two forms: conscience or coercion.  A signed contract is only enforceable if you have the money to pursue it in court.  Therefore, when you sign a contract with an employee, business partner, friend; when you sign over a piece of real estate, a  vehicle, etc., you are almost certainly guaranteeing that any fraudulent issues which may arise will go to civil, not criminal, court.  

Never, never sign a contract without an attorney or totally objective third party's participation and notarized signature.  The con man can change any part of  the contract that was made between you and him.  The police may only require him to fax a copy  of the signed agreement - just to get you off their back and close the case. 

However, in Small Claims Court, if you are attempting to collect on a debt, you can be certain that very few minutes will pass before the judge looks at you and says, "Do you have a signed contract?"  Therefore, if you try to collect civilly on a debt, you are already at a disadvantage if you do not have a signed contract with the defendant.  But if you do have a contract, the chances are the police will not help you....

The Victim as the "Traitor" 

(8)  The con artist will attempt to gain control of your thinking so that you won't use your common sense.  He may even become belligerent at times in the hopes of intimidating you into compliance.  He will never do this at the beginning of the scam before he gains your confidence.  He will wait till the end when you are tiring of the excuses or procrastination.  He will attempt to make you feel like a traitor to the "cause" or a fool who doesn't have the patience to wait just a little longer to make a lot of money.

Never fall for this.  Use your common sense.  What are the reasons that he is procrastinating?  Check them out for yourself.  If he won't tell you or won't give you someone to contact, allow your common sense to take over - and end the scam before you lose more than you already have.

Here's a link to the complete page with more on this.

Bob

http://www.straightshooter.net/Beware_of_the_Con_Artist.htm

Janet Whitcomb

  • Guest
Re: Anna Anderson and Anastasia
« Reply #48 on: April 30, 2004, 12:56:09 PM »
Bob, if "Anna" was not Anastasia, and--just as importantly--didn't think she was Anastasia, and managed to deceive so many people . . . that says something (actually, quite a lot) about the people who supported her. Either they also were enjoying the coattail ride, wanted to support the bedraggled woman (whoever she was) out of sympathy, or wanted to believe in her for any number of reasons that would dovetail with their own psychological needs.

I'm still in the process of accepting your explanation re: Gleb Botkin. I'll get there  :) , but since his father was, from all I've read, such a stickler for veracity, as well as being a very introspective person, it's difficult for me to think of Gleb as going along with something, long after he might have begun to feel uneasy about it . . . and his sister doing the same. After all, although they did not forfeit their lives, their lives were certainly turned upside down, and they lost not only their parent but their greatest advocate.

It would be interesting to know how Manahan was regarded before all the Anna/Anastasia hoopla.  At some point I think "Anna"--despite earlier shystering--may well have considered herself the actual grand duchess, looking upon all those photos adorning the Manahan home as actual photos of her. (The "Anastasia Complex"?  ::) ) I've read enough about her final years with Manahan to think that, at the end, they were both mentally and physically frail people, clinging to each other and to life.

But the earlier portion of her story--with so many people believing in her, incorporating her into their lives, or simply investing their time/energy/money due to the curiosity/novelty factor--sounds like a 20th century version of "The Emperor's New Clothes." (Not, of course, to be confused with the 20th Century Fox version!  ;) )

Janet Whitcomb

  • Guest
Re: Anna Anderson and Anastasia
« Reply #49 on: April 30, 2004, 01:05:30 PM »
Excellent points all, Bob. Thanks also for the website. Unfortunately, Life is a 24/7 exercise in "watch your back."

Jmentanko

  • Guest
Re: Anna Anderson and Anastasia
« Reply #50 on: April 30, 2004, 01:59:29 PM »
It's all so simple, isn't it . . .

Offline BobAtchison

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 896
    • View Profile
    • The Alexander Palace
Re: Anna Anderson and Anastasia
« Reply #51 on: April 30, 2004, 02:57:43 PM »
Thanks, Janet - having been a victim in the past all I can say is I wish I had known then what I know now!

Bob

Jmentanko

  • Guest
Re: Anna Anderson and Anastasia
« Reply #52 on: May 02, 2004, 09:55:32 AM »
I consider Anna to be intelligent. No doubt she wasn't "book smart." However, she was certaintly good at manipulating/dealing with people. I have to give her some credit.

Offline Forum Admin

  • Administrator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 4665
  • www.alexanderpalace.org
    • View Profile
    • Alexander Palace Time Machine
Re: Anna Anderson and Anastasia
« Reply #53 on: May 02, 2004, 10:17:07 AM »
Many "con artists" WANT people to think they are not very intelligent, it lends credence to their tales. Usually, a con artist gains trust by telling their victim exactly what the victim wants and expects to hear. They have an answer for everything, always plausible. Excuses for everything when questioned, delaying actual proof as long as possible, changing their story as needed or ignoring the question completely and changing the subject to something else to deflect the genuine question. Eventually, they will turn against their "friend" when the victim realizes the truth, and they will lay blame on the "friend/victim" again to try to disguise their con. That which they complain of most loudly is what they themselves are hiding. The one thing they can NEVER do is provide the actual, genuine proof of their claims, they always provide some ambiguous, yet believable, generality, but NEVER can provide the actual facts proven by a verified outside source....is always just smoke and mirrors, nothing of substance or reality.

I think Anna Anderson knew exactly what she was doing...a typical con act.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by admin »

Offline Forum Admin

  • Administrator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 4665
  • www.alexanderpalace.org
    • View Profile
    • Alexander Palace Time Machine
Re: Anna Anderson and Anastasia
« Reply #54 on: May 02, 2004, 07:21:10 PM »
Just another word of warning. Sadly, folks, "Joanna Meyer" or whoever it is still tried to come into the forum again today using phony addresses and names as a guest. This time, they used "frontline@pbs.org" as an email!! all the IP addresses though resolve to Denver Colorado and attworldnet or a colorado public office IP. If you ever wonder if someone is serious, click on the little envelope under the guests name, and you will get their email address. THESE were clearly bogus postings still attempting to disrupt the forum for some sick and twisted reasons. Sorry again if anyone read their silly stuff. Talk about wasting time and energy, you would think these losers would identify their real identity if they really wanted to participate, or otherwise devote themselves to something constructive and publicly useful instead.
FA
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by admin »

Offline LisaDavidson

  • Moderator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 2665
    • View Profile
Re: Anna Anderson and Anastasia
« Reply #55 on: May 02, 2004, 10:58:01 PM »
Thank you for letting us know this, FA. It's a shame someone will go to this extent to cause problems on our forum!

borgia

  • Guest
Re: Anna Anderson and Anastasia
« Reply #56 on: May 12, 2004, 06:12:53 PM »
Whatever,whoever Anna Anderson was;its too bad that she could not have  come to enjoy her life and found some real happiness  .

wintermead

  • Guest
Re: Anna Anderson and Anastasia
« Reply #57 on: May 13, 2004, 12:30:10 PM »
  Well its hard to blame a lost and mentally unstable woman (who's real life was so difficult) for regecting  that personality and  then embracing a life of drama and romance as another person!

 Maybe its not so much that Fransisca LIED about being Anastasia as she simply forgot herself...

Offline Guinastasia

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 177
  • Grand Duchess of Penguins
    • View Profile
Re: Anna Anderson and Anastasia
« Reply #58 on: May 14, 2004, 02:15:53 PM »
Could she possibly have just been delusional?  I mean, most historians accept that Anderson was mentally ill-perhaps she really DID indeed believe she was Anastasia-she seemed to me less as someone trying a fraud and more of someone with delusions of grandeur.  (Like people who think they're Napoleon, or Jesus or whoever).

From what I've read, the woman was used by a lot of people, and she was, to put it bluntly, crazier than an outhouse rat (case in point-she was a hoarder, an animal hoarder, both big warning signs), paranoid, delusional, etc.  

So I don't think it was a deliberate hoax, at least not on her part.  Of if it started out as one, it sure seems like she believed it.  


May the road rise up to meet you.
May the wind always be at your back.
May the sun shine warm upon your face,
and rains fall soft upon your fields.
And until we meet again,
May God hold you in the palm of His hand.

Ivan Kent Steinke

  • Guest
Re: Anna Anderson and Anastasia
« Reply #59 on: May 17, 2004, 03:09:06 PM »
     I am not entirely convinced that Anna Anderson and Grand Duchess Anastasia were not the same person. Lili Dehn, Tatiana Botkin, Grand Duke Andrei, Mathilde Kesschinska- all of these persons positively identified this woman as being their friend or relative.
     Even if, however, Anna Anderson was not Anastasia she was certainly not Franziska Schanskowska, regardless of what the DNA says. Whoever she was, and whatever life she lived before, her existance is documented from Feb. 17, 1920. Franziska did not dissapear until March. The two of them are accounted for at the SAME TIME! Also, Anna Anderson was examined by a German doctor in the 1950s, a doctor who certified that she had once been pregnant and given birth. The Schanskowska family affirmed, once, that Franziska had never been pregnant.
    I think there is a simple answer to the problem with the DNA. If you look carefully at the whole procedure you will find that there was only one European royal family directly involved- the Windsor, in England. The Hohenzollerns no longer have anything to lose politically [if Anna Anderson turns out to be Anastasia]. The Romanovs have nothing to lose politically, either- only the Windsors, who would suffer a massive public relations nightmare at having left a poor royal cousin in the gutter. There are already many in England who see the Windsors as incorrigibly corrupt, and who clamor for their removal. Does Prince Phillip want this scandal to make things worse? Of course not.
    The Windsor family is one of the wealthiest in the world, with a fortune exceeding $25 billion for the queen alone. Also, contrary to what some people, the royal family of Great Britain is not absolutely devoid of power. In some ways they are still one of the most powerful families in the world.
    It would not have been difficult, at all, for the Windsors to have rigged the results, in order to protect their own public relations image and political position.