Anna Anderson and Anastasia

[olga]

I have not served in the forces but I honour his memory by continuing the tradition by being a Royalist.
You do this just because your father did? Aren't you your own person? Are you not able to think for yourself?

And another abrasive little secret, I go horse racing a lot and when I pass the Queen [HM The Queen is at most of the big meetings] I bow, I bow to her and her Office.


Do you see lots of upper class bluebloods there? The Queen is nothing more than an archaicfigurehead who symbolises British Imperialism and the grossly unjust class system. Why should she live in  a wonderful palace, have people bowing and kissing her shadow just because she was born into that position?

                                                                                             

I'm sorry, I couldn't resist.  

[Greg_King]

See. now my dad says the same thing, but when I ask him to explain how he understood what the cab driver was saying (not just the curse words) he just blows it off.  He's very aloof when it comes to stuff like that.  All I know is what I saw.  Maybe it's more like English and Swedish.  Before I went to Sweden, I couldn't speak or understand a word of it (except what I picked up from language tapes), but now I can at least understand some of it.  The languages seem very different at first, but once you hear Swedish enough, the differences fade quite a bit.  That's not to say I can understand everything I hear in Swedish, but I have an easier time understanding Swedish than I do German, a language I studied for 3 years.

Alexa

I suppose at this point in the discussion, I would like to know what the sources are for the repeated claim that AA spoke Polish?  I know of only one such assertion, and it comes from a period when AA was living in Virginia after her marriage to John Manahan.  Any number of people asserted she spoke a number of languages or understood them, but Polish was never among them.  And, in any case, (since presumably this goes to the theory that AA was Franziska Schanzkowska), FS who grew up in western Poland, in the Pomerania region, spoke Katchoubian dialect, as her siblings all testified, and as the police reports on her assert.  She picked up some Polish, but it was not enough to even speak in complete sentences, and her German, learned after she came to Berlin, was in fact her best language after Katchoubian.

So again, I wonder who heard her speak Polish, because if it's in line with the theory that she was FS, it contradicts the evidence of her family and the existing reports in FS's police files.

Greg King

[Alexa]

I suppose at this point in the discussion, I would like to know what the sources are for the repeated claim that AA spoke Polish?  I know of only one such assertion, and it comes from a period when AA was living in Virginia after her marriage to John Manahan.  Any number of people asserted she spoke a number of languages or understood them, but Polish was never among them.  And, in any case, (since presumably this goes to the theory that AA was Franziska Schanzkowska), FS who grew up in western Poland, in the Pomerania region, spoke Katchoubian dialect, as her siblings all testified, and as the police reports on her assert.  She picked up some Polish, but it was not enough to even speak in complete sentences, and her German, learned after she came to Berlin, was in fact her best language after Katchoubian.

So again, I wonder who heard her speak Polish, because if it's in line with the theory that she was FS, it contradicts the evidence of her family and the existing reports in FS's police files.

Greg King

Hey Greg,
Could you let us know which languages AA spoke, other than German and English?  It's been ages since I read your book, and with all the information about her floating around, both true and false, my brain confuses much of the clutter.

Also, who in Virginia asserted that she spoke Polish?  Just curious as to how this rumor got started.

Thanks!
Alexa

[rskkiya]

Mr. King
Wow! Once again there seems to be a great deal of misinformation about ! I felt quite certain that a number of books and documentaries on AA/the Romanovs have commented on Fransisca-Anna speaking Polish!
I don't disbelieve you-- you are a historian and an author of some renown -- but this is strange news indeed. Is the dialect of the region that Anna was from at all similar to either Polish or Russian?
Thanks again for this new bit of information!

One confused kitty
Rskkiya

[cville]

All DNA tests are not the same. There's some doubt surrounding the Manahan test.

First, there is zero evidence chain to assure that the tissue sample that left Charlottesville, Virginia, is the same thing that arrived at the testing site. Substitutions along the route and near the point of delivery were possible. There was motive, means, and opportunity for that due to how it was shipped. That was accepted from the start and is not in doubt. Because of that, although the test is useful in the court of history, that test would not be accepted in a US court of law.

Second, by now many have seen the British medical journal "Annals of Human Biology" for January 2004. An article there casts doubt on some DNA samples against which Anna Manahan's were compared. The DNA is said to have been too well preserved, and contaminated with "fresh" DNA. Here's the abstract:

Annals of Human Biology - Publisher: Taylor & Francis Health Science. January 28, 2004

Background: A set of human remains unearthed near Ekaterinburg, Russia has been attributed to the Romanov Imperial Family of Russia and their physician and servants. That conclusion was officially accepted by the Russian government following publication of DNA tests that were widely publicized.

The published study included no discussion of major forensic discrepancies and the information regarding the burial site and remains included irregularities. Furthermore, its conclusion of Romanov identity was based on molecular behaviour that indicates contamination rather than endogenous DNA.

The published claim to have amplified by PCR a 1223 bp region of degraded DNA in a single segment for nine individuals and then to have obtained sequence of PCR products derived from that segment without cloning indicates that the Ekaterinburg samples were contaminated with non-degraded, high molecular weight, 'fresh' DNA.

Aim: Noting major violations of standard forensic practices, factual inconsistencies, and molecular behaviours that invalidate the claimed identity, we attempted to replicate the findings of the original DNA study.

Subject: We analysed mtDNA extracted from a sample of the relic of Grand Duchess Elisabeth, sister of Empress Alexandra.

Results: Among clones of multiple PCR targets and products, we observed no complete mtDNA haplotype matching that reported for Alexandra. The consensus haplotype of Elisabeth differs from that reported for Alexandra at four sites.

Conclusion: Considering molecular and forensic inconsistencies, the identity of the Ekaterinburg remains has not been established. Our mtDNA haplotype results for Elisabeth provide yet another line of conflicting evidence regarding the identity of the Ekaterinburg remains.

To see the web page for this: http://tinyurl.com/3nvcn

That's a shortcut to:
http://taylorandfrancis.metapress.com/app/home/contribution.asp?wasp=8dflwglxwh0j0qgunm13&referrer=parent&backto=issue,1,14;journal,3,34;linkingpublicationresults,1:102426,1

[Forum Admin]

All DNA tests are not the same. There's some doubt surrounding the Manahan test.

First, there is zero evidence chain to assure that the tissue sample that left Charlottesville, Virginia, is the same thing that arrived at the testing site. Substitutions along the route and near the point of delivery were possible.

Second, by now many have seen the British medical journal "Annals of Human Biology" for January 2004. An article there casts doubt on some DNA samples against which Anna Manahan's were compared. The DNA is said to have been too well preserved, and contaminated with "fresh" DNA. Here's the abstract:
 

Point one: Actually, all labs that performed the Manahan test signed off on the chain of handling as meeting national standards. It WOULD be admissible in a Court of Law.

Point 2: You mix apples and oranges.  The January 2004 article you cite refers only to the work done by Gill on the Ekaterinburg samples and has nothing to do with the Manahan samples whatsoever. There is simply no question about the samples of the living descendants who were compared being exactly who and what they purport to be. The only "contamination" question (if there actually IS one) about the Imperial Family DNA from Ekaterinburg.

PLEASE keep your facts and issues straight in this regard.
Thanks.
FA

[LisaDavidson]

The above test to which you refer has been discredited, at least in part due to a claimant with an agenda finding his way into credited co-authorship of the study. Repeated requests to Dr. Knight to explain or clarify this irregularity have resulted in his promising to explain this at a later date, after publication of yet another paper.

You also conveniently fail to state that there were multiple identical samples of DNA from the late Mrs. Manahan in addition to the hospital's materials. If you cannot explain this ommission, we may be forced to conclude that you, too, have an agenda, not to mention, a bias.

As to the Mrs. Manahan speaking Polish issue, Peter Kurth states that she did not speak Polish and for me, his word is sufficient. Grand Duke Alexander Mikhailovich, on the other hand, is not always reliable and he is a possible source of the Mrs. Manahan speaking Polish issue. He said something to the effect that Nicky's daughter may have changed in looks, but no daughter of the Tsar would speak Russian with a Polish accent.

[cville]

Correction of Point One. No one signed off on the transmission of the Manahan intestine test piece because no one could. It was shipped unaccompanied. There seems to be no problem with the handling at both ends, but those who shipped and those who received have no knowledge that nothing happened in-between, and stated so in at least one newspaper story (The Daily Progress - Charlottesville, VA) at the time. That is what keeps it from being accepted in a court of law, which requires the evidence be secure every step of the way.

So far as I know, there was no other DNA test with even that much credibility, though I'd be interested in learning of any. Hair was tested but there is no evidence but informal and circumstantial the hair came from Anna Manahan.

One member of a group of scientists issuing the report has an interest in the matter. So what? They all signed off on the report, have had ample time to backtrack, and have not done so.  Until they do, that objection is stretching things. But then Anna Anderson's adventures have been stretching things for years.

Perhaps Peter Kurth will have new insights when he's interviewed in a few weeks for a program on the Disney Channel. It will likely be broadcast in the next six months.

[AGRBear]

While we wait for Kurth's interview,  I hope I can continue an earlier topic on this thread which spilled over to another thread and I was told to bring it back here.  

See Posts  2 Oct. ...

This was Forum Admin. wrote me last:

They are on the AA/Anastasia thread, about Oct. 1. in response to British Blue.
the gist of it:Yurovsky was not in direct communication with Lenin. His direct contact was with Sverdlov (chairman of Central Exec Committe in Moscow). The military commander of Ekaterinburg, Goloshchyokin went to Sverdlov in Moscow, and was specifically denied permission to execute the IF. Lenin told Sverdlov that he specifically wanted the IF brought to Moscow for a public "show trial"
Sverdlov's exact words;"Filip, (Goloshchyokin) tell the comrades that the ARCEC does not give official sanction to an execution."

The relevant telegrams are in Last Act of a Tragedy, published in 1996, by Aleksyev, who spent much time going thru all the relevant files and archives  in Russia, able to read whatever he wanted. there simply are NO telegrams from Lenin ordering the murders.

This is after I wrote......  I'll be right back I have to copy it....

Evidently you are just having fun at Jon C's expense.  Why doesn't this surprise me?   It is unfortunate  Jon C's  suggestion is being rediculed.  Since his thoughts are not that much different than my own thoughts that one, two or all may have escaped.  Unlike R and others,   I can understand what Jon C. is trying to discover.  

Jon C. ,  it is possible that one, two or all of the Imperial Family escaped.  I for one do not believe the history written by the CHEKA of Ekaterinburg, the Ural Soviets nor Lenin and Stalin's people.
----
Here is a good example:  

Time and time again,  we are being told that Lenin did not sent a telegram to Ekaterinburg to give the order of the execution of the Imperial Family.

In the book THE FALL OF THE ROMANOVS by Steinberg and Khrustalaev pps.  290-291.

In brief the authors talk about Filipp Goloshchekin's visit to Moscow in early July.

"There is some indication that a contingency plan was discussed.  In the 1930s, Yurovsky stated that while Goloshchekin was in Moscow in early July 'the center' decided 'what to do if abandoning Yekaterinburg became unavoidable'-- implying that this was a decision in favor of executing th forer tsar..."

The authors go into the possible trial if  Nicholas II was taken to Moscow.

A few paragraphs later the authors write:
"Did Moscow respond with a direct order?  If a decision to execute the former tsar and his family had alrelady been made in Mocow, no such order would have been necessary.  According to Yurovsky, however an order to  'exterminate the R-----ovs' did arrive in Yekaterinburg sometime before 6:00 in the evening on 16 July [Document 159]."   "But Yurovsky's statement is not proof.  It also raises more questions."
----
You bet it raises more questions by me and others.

Knowing how well Lenin, Ural Soviets and CHEKA could cover up a single telegram,  means to me that they were certainly capable of covering up the escape of one or all of the Imperial Family on the night of 16/17 July 1918.

.... others can't seem to accept this possibility.  However, after long last,  they will admit a very very distant possibility one or two of the Imperial Family may have escaped for a day or two or nine months.  [I have no idea  where C1 is taking them on this, althought I can guess.]  But,  I, Jon C., and others can.   I assume that is why this thread was created in the first place because of the possibility there are  "Serious Claimants".

When I, Jon C. or anyone else dares to think  one or all escaped the doubters ask for evidence.

I have mentioned the fact that a high offical in the German community had told people that  when the word came out of Russia around the date of 16 July 1918 that Nicholas II had been executed that it was not to be believed.....

I have mentioned various names of people who claimed they had seen one or all members of the Royal Family after 16 July 1918....

There is evidence that trains were being searched by Red Army who were looking for the "missing" Romanovs...

This evidence is set aside by those who believe the CHEKA, Ural Soviets and Lenin that they executed the Imperial Family.

The CHEKA, Ural Soviets, Lenin and Stalin and other communists have had a long long time to eliminate all evidence that could have proven an escape of one, two or all.

Conspiracy.  You bet!

Why?  As I've said before,  "The CHEKA, Ural Soviets, Lenin and communists did not/  do not want the world to know that the Imperial Family was not executed on the night of 16/17  July 1918 because of the approaching White Army but they  [nine we know of out  of the eleven] were MURDERED when there  was no longer a threat from the White Army rescuers.

AGRBear

I have one more thing to add so,  I'll be right back.


AGRBear

[AGRBear]

Telegram:

R- wrote:
"The FA has made several posts about the the "telegram from the government issue" Please reread them! R. "

I'll be more than happy to read or reread Forum Admin. posting o the telegram.  Where may I find them?  

Meanwhile,  since I've continued to read The Fall of the Romanovs by Steinberg and Khrustalaev,  I see on p. 292:

"The main evidence that a telegram ordering execution came from Moscow is a statement made in the 1960s by a member of the Kreimlin guard who claimed that he personally carried Lenin's message to the telegraph office"confirming" the "decision" of the Ural party committee to execute the former tsar and his family."  following this statement is the number 53.  So,  I turned back to note #53 which reads "Radzinsky, Last Tsar, pp. 345 -346.

So I went out to my garage,  moved about ten boxes and found Radzinsky's book.  

Radzinsky continues with a letter of Nikolai Lapik,  director of the Progress Factory's museum in the town of Kuibyshev p. 345-6:  
"We have in our museium a tpyed record of a conversation between F. F. Akimov and A. G. Smyshlyaev...."

To make it brief,  Radzinsky talks about the telegram and more.  The telegrapher had refused to give up the "copy" of the telegram and the  "ribbon", a gun was pulled, threats and the operator gave up the  "copy" and the 'ribbon".

Radzinsky's conclusion was:
"So, the Sovnarkom and Central Executive Commmitte (that is, Lenin and Sverdlov) sent that telegram to Ekaterinburg  'with confirmation of this decision' about the execution of the tsar's family."


-----


We  [I and Robert] have  already agreed he probably has more books in his library than I but I'm not sure if he could out number me if I counted ALL the books I've bought and read. Besides, I'm not sure what the number of books have to do with my theory that there may have been "survivors"  There are many readers who have used the library and don't own but a few books.  

Nor have I ever announced that I thought a "real" claimant or descendant has ever  surfaced.

All I am asking is that you open up your mind to the possible fact that the CHEKA, Ural Soviet and Lenin may have covered up events of the night of 16/17  July 1918 in the Ipatiev House in Ekaterinburg , Siberia , Russia.  I used the telegram because there is a controvery over it's exsistence, too.

And, once you have opened your mind,  then allow those of us who think it is possible that one, two or all may not have been executed that night as the CHEKA, Ural Soveits and Lenin try to make us believe they were.

AGRBear

So,  now,  most of you can see what was being talked about.

From what I've read,  it appears to me that Lenin did give orders to execute Nicholas II, and,  another place I differ is,  I think Yurovsky, who was one of Lenin's "lieutenants",  was in all of this "up to his ears" from it's conception.

AGRBear

[rskkiya]

Agrbear This is  the FA statement about the " telegram question"
.

According to the book "Last Act of a Tragedy" by Russian researchers who went into the long secret Bolshevik archives, there is no "smoking gun" evidence Lenin ordered the murders. All of the telegrams and documents show that the Ural Soviet was acting on their own, and that Lenin approved the murders after the fact.
If anyone has documentation otherwise, please share it with us.

Ok? Rskkiya

[AGRBear]

I am not sure if an "okay" answered any of my findings in other books.  Since I don't have "Last Act of a Tragedy", what does it say about the typed letter in the museum and the destruction of the "telegram"?  And, what does it mean that one person was free to look at documents?  Who is he?  And,  what made him acceptable to the Russians?  Since I'm sure he is highly regarded by the Forum Admin.,  then he is honest and forthright, this said, then I suspect    if there had been anything before he gained his permission,  the last shreads of evidence was gone before he got there..  

What does it say about Yurovsky being Lenin's faithful lieutenant?  These two knew each other in Germany.  These two saw each other many times, and,  before the execution. They believed in being terrorists.   Unlike some people think  Yurovsky wasn't just a person who just happen to have been in the wrong place at the wrong time and  I will not feel sorry for him because he chose his own fate in these events.

I have mentioned the various books which follow my thoughts and conclusion in many threads.  

I  hardly think one book is going to halt my distrust toward the CHEKA, Ural Soviets, Lenin, later Stalin, communism, and, now some of the misguided people who are still willing to hide the truth.

R- Why are you suddenly talking for our Forum Admin. ?   I realize he is quite busy and has probably some pain in his neck from the stuff that was happening over in the  serious claimant just as he was having it here for a time, but I'm sure he can speak for himself here.

Also, R.,  you have not unblocked my ability to write to you directly as you've said twice, now.  Could I please write you privately,  I let you write me  

[rskkiya]

agrbear
No I was just pointing out the FA's statement about the Last Act of a Tragedy...I am certainly not his mouthpeice!
LOL Larks I just got the hang of the "quote" fuction ...LOL

R

[Greg_King]

Hey Greg,
Could you let us know which languages AA spoke, other than German and English?  It's been ages since I read your book, and with all the information about her floating around, both true and false, my brain confuses much of the clutter.

Also, who in Virginia asserted that she spoke Polish?  Just curious as to how this rumor got started.

Thanks!
Alexa

From the beginning of her story in 1920, the accounts all agree that AA spoke a very fragmented form of German in daily conversation.  She understood Russian, but generally refused to speak it (though she did do so in front of any number of witnesses, and also was recorded by a doctor-a native Russian-as having spoken it in her sleep and at other times).  Generally, as Grand Duchess Olga Alexandrovna recalled of her visits to AA, when asked a question in Russian, AA would answer in German, so no one could claim she did not understand it.  She spoke fragmentary French, though not very gramatically, and her English was likewise fragmented-she understood it and could speak it, but could not formulate it into gramatical sentences very well.

As to the assertion that as an old lady she spoke Polish: the lady who believes she heard this is a respected friend of mine, and I believe she sincerely does believe that this is what she heard, but it would be the first recorded instance of it happening in this case, which is why I remain skeptical.  But as she is well-known in her own right, I'm not going to drag her into this!

As an aside: I don't know about anyone else, but by this time, on this thread, for me to answer every single message (20 pages worth) has to load on the "Post a reply" page, which takes a very long time.  So perhaps very specific topics related to AA or anything else being discussed here could be posted as new threads for those of us condemned to dial-up?  Just a thought.

Greg King

[Greg_King]

I am not sure if an "okay" answered any of my findings in other books.  Since I don't have "Last Act of a Tragedy", what does it say about the typed letter in the museum and the destruction of the "telegram"?  And, what does it mean that one person was free to look at documents?  Who is he?  And,  what made him acceptable to the Russians?  Since I'm sure he is highly regarded by the Forum Admin.,  then he is honest and forthright, this said, then I suspect    if there had been anything before he gained his permission,  the last shreads of evidence was gone before he got there..  

What does it say about Yurovsky being Lenin's faithful lieutenant?  These two knew each other in Germany.  These two saw each other many times, and,  before the execution. They believed in being terrorists.   Unlike some people think  Yurovsky wasn't just a person who just happen to have been in the wrong place at the wrong time and  I will not feel sorry for him because he chose his own fate in these events.

I have mentioned the various books which follow my thoughts and conclusion in many threads.  

I  hardly think one book is going to halt my distrust toward the CHEKA, Ural Soviets, Lenin, later Stalin, communism, and, now some of the misguided people who are still willing to hide the truth.

R- Why are you suddenly talking for our Forum Admin. ?   I realize he is quite busy and has probably some pain in his neck from the stuff that was happening over in the  serious claimant just as he was having it here for a time, but I'm sure he can speak for himself here.

Also, R.,  you have not unblocked my ability to write to you directly as you've said twice, now.  Could I please write you privately,  I let you write me  

AGRBear:

Please see pages 292-93 in "The Fate of the Romanovs" for the most up to date assessment of Radzinsky's claim.  You will see it falls far short of what he intimates.

As to your claim that Yurovsky knew Lenin in Germany: this is certainly news to me, or indeed to any Lenin scholar.  I daresay we saw and uncovered as much information as anyone yet on Yurovsky in our book, including his unpublished memoirs, and there is no evidence whatsoever that the two men met in Germany.

Greg King