Author Topic: Marie Elisabeth Amalie Franziska of Bavaria, princess Wagram  (Read 24093 times)

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Offline britt.25

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Re: Marie Elisabeth Amalie Franziska of Bavaria, princess Wagram
« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2007, 03:36:05 AM »
The last one is also Maria Franziska Dorothea? It´s interesting, I only know a picture of her as a young woman (with the portrait of her son )




Friedrich Michael:



This was already sent in a clearer version, I only know this: Where did you get the other?



La vérité est plus importante que l'amour

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Offline José

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Re: Marie Elisabeth Amalie Franziska of Bavaria, princess Wagram
« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2007, 11:36:25 AM »
Hello

I am in search of pics related to Elizabeth.
1. Amélie d'Arenberg oo Dke Pius
2. Christian III Zweibrucken and wife caroline of Nassau
3. Their daughter Caroline, pss of Hesse-Darmstadt
4. Maria Anne Camasse, wife of Christian IV
5. Frederich-Michael and wife Maria Franziska v. Sulzbach
6. Carl II of Pfalz-Zweibrucken  and Maria Amalia of Bavaria wife of Fredeick-Augustus of Saxony

Thanks in advance

Sorry, José, but I only have portraits of Friedrich Michael of Birkenfeld-Zweibrücken and his wife, Maria Franziska Dorothea von Sulzbach. These are:




On the 3rd pic would it be Fr.Michael, his mother and one of his sisters, Caroline, Landgravin of Hesse-Darmstadt or Christinne, princess of Waldeck ?

Offline guinevere

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Re: Marie Elisabeth Amalie Franziska of Bavaria, princess Wagram
« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2007, 02:23:12 PM »
... by the way, the Marriage of Friedrich Michael of Zweibrücken and Franziska Dorothea of Sulzbach was very unhappy. They married on the 6. February 1746 and had 5 Children together:
1. Karl II August 1746 - 1795
2. Klemens 1749 - 1750
3. Marie Amalie 1752 - 1828
4. Maria Anna 1753 - 1824
5. Max I Joseph Bavaria 1756 - 1825

Friedrich Michael was in the Army and most of the Marriage away in Hungary and Bohemia. Franziska was with her Children alone in Mannheim and Zweibrücken and started about 1759 an Affair with an Actor from Mannheim. Her Brother in Law, Christian IV von Zweibrücken didnt like her anyway, but when she became pregnant, and everybody knew that it could not be her Husbands Child, Christian IV forced her to live in a nunnery. As far as i know she was not aloud to see her Children ( Her youngest was only 4 Years old) again. Christian IV took care for his Nieces and Nephews. Friedrich Michael died 1767 and Franziska died 1794.......

Offline Yseult

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Re: Marie Elisabeth Amalie Franziska of Bavaria, princess Wagram
« Reply #18 on: March 03, 2007, 02:36:07 PM »
... by the way, the Marriage of Friedrich Michael of Zweibrücken and Franziska Dorothea of Sulzbach was very unhappy. They married on the 6. February 1746 and had 5 Children together:
1. Karl II August 1746 - 1795
2. Klemens 1749 - 1750
3. Marie Amalie 1752 - 1828
4. Maria Anna 1753 - 1824
5. Max I Joseph Bavaria 1756 - 1825

Friedrich Michael was in the Army and most of the Marriage away in Hungary and Bohemia. Franziska was with her Children alone in Mannheim and Zweibrücken and started about 1759 an Affair with an Actor from Mannheim. Her Brother in Law, Christian IV von Zweibrücken didnt like her anyway, but when she became pregnant, and everybody knew that it could not be her Husbands Child, Christian IV forced her to live in a nunnery. As far as i know she was not aloud to see her Children ( Her youngest was only 4 Years old) again. Christian IV took care for his Nieces and Nephews. Friedrich Michael died 1767 and Franziska died 1794.......

What a sad story!  :(
If the liaison between Franziska and the actor began about 1759, she became pregnant by her lover and was forced by her brother in law to live in a nunnery, so, her children, and I´m thinking in her younger children Maria Anna and Maximilian, "lose" their mummy in a very tender age. Do you know how they felt?

Offline guinevere

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Re: Marie Elisabeth Amalie Franziska of Bavaria, princess Wagram
« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2007, 03:27:19 PM »
it is always sad to loose the mother.
I think they were not so close to their Father because he was not much with them during his Lifetime. But the children had spend a lot of Time with their mother, so it must have been dificult for them.
But as you can see in the next Generation , such a loss was much more felt by the elder Children. For the young ones it was often easier to cope with a new Situation.
I mean the death of Auguste Wilhelmine the First Wife of Max I Joseph who died 1796. Her eldest son Ludwig I of Bavaria never got over the Loss of his Mother ( He was 11 when she died) and the youngest Karl ( he was just 1 Year old) got on very well with his stepmother ....

Offline Yseult

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Re: Marie Elisabeth Amalie Franziska of Bavaria, princess Wagram
« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2007, 03:48:31 PM »
it is always sad to loose the mother.
I think they were not so close to their Father because he was not much with them during his Lifetime. But the children had spend a lot of Time with their mother, so it must have been dificult for them.
But as you can see in the next Generation , such a loss was much more felt by the elder Children. For the young ones it was often easier to cope with a new Situation.
I mean the death of Auguste Wilhelmine the First Wife of Max I Joseph who died 1796. Her eldest son Ludwig I of Bavaria never got over the Loss of his Mother ( He was 11 when she died) and the youngest Karl ( he was just 1 Year old) got on very well with his stepmother ....

Yes, Guinevere. But to loose your mother in childhood because she is dead it´s a different thing that to lose your mother in childhood because she commited adultery and she was seclused in a nunnery. The sorrow and the pain for a mother´s death is not the same thing that the knowledge of a mother who is alive but forced to be apart from her children.

Offline guinevere

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Re: Marie Elisabeth Amalie Franziska of Bavaria, princess Wagram
« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2007, 04:10:42 PM »
... maybe youre right, but for Franziskas Children I dont know, when they learned the Truth about their Mother. She was gone, they didnt see her anymore and I guess nobody around them talked about her anymore... must have been as terrible for them ... ;)

Offline Yseult

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Re: Marie Elisabeth Amalie Franziska of Bavaria, princess Wagram
« Reply #22 on: March 03, 2007, 04:17:20 PM »
... maybe youre right, but for Franziskas Children I dont know, when they learned the Truth about their Mother. She was gone, they didnt see her anymore and I guess nobody around them talked about her anymore... must have been as terrible for them ... ;)

Off topic: my God, I can´t imagine the archduchess Sophie knowing that her paternal grand-mother had been involved in an extraconjugal affair with an actor!! Too much!!

Offline Yseult

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Re: Marie Elisabeth Amalie Franziska of Bavaria, princess Wagram
« Reply #23 on: March 18, 2007, 03:00:34 PM »
I have found an image of Elisabeth wife of Berthier prince of Wagram.




Offline MarieCharlotte

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Re: Marie Elisabeth Amalie Franziska of Bavaria, princess Wagram
« Reply #24 on: March 19, 2007, 02:18:40 AM »
I have found an image of Elisabeth wife of Berthier prince of Wagram.





NOOOOOOOO !!! As I have mentioned before, this is Auguste Ferdinande Archduchess of Austria and wife of Prinzregent Luitpold of Bavaria.  ;)
Ich aber breite trauernd aus
die weiten weissen Schwingen,
Und kehr' ins Feenreich nach Haus -
Nichts soll mich wieder bringen.


Elisabeth

Offline britt.25

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Re: Marie Elisabeth Amalie Franziska of Bavaria, princess Wagram
« Reply #25 on: March 19, 2007, 03:04:33 AM »
It´s really a pity that they put this wrong image on the "royalty travel guide"- site. I wonder, where this confusion comes from! :P
La vérité est plus importante que l'amour

     Marie Bonaparte (1882-1962)

Offline Yseult

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Re: Marie Elisabeth Amalie Franziska of Bavaria, princess Wagram
« Reply #26 on: March 19, 2007, 04:25:41 AM »
 :o :'( >:(

Thanks, Britt. What a mistake...

Offline britt.25

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Re: Marie Elisabeth Amalie Franziska of Bavaria, princess Wagram
« Reply #27 on: March 19, 2007, 06:39:23 AM »
@MarieCharlotte noticed it at first, even if it was also my suspicion... already some time after I found this pic...I wonder, where could be a real picture of Elisabeth Franziska....Nobody ever found any... :-\ :'(
La vérité est plus importante que l'amour

     Marie Bonaparte (1882-1962)

Offline mardam

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Re: Marie Elisabeth Amalie Franziska of Bavaria, princess Wagram
« Reply #28 on: March 19, 2007, 08:07:16 AM »
According to the experts I have a wrong picture on my website.
I cannot check it, because I do not have the article about Berthier anymore.
In search for a new picture I found one, but like to check by you all.
Is this the woman we are looking for?
Thank you for your help.

http://www.gac.culture.gov.uk/search/Object.asp?object_key=27149

Offline britt.25

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Re: Marie Elisabeth Amalie Franziska of Bavaria, princess Wagram
« Reply #29 on: March 19, 2007, 08:52:56 AM »
Hello Mardam,

Sorry for the critics of your website  ;)

Your "old" picture really seems to show Auguste Ferdinanda instead of Elisabeth Franziska, maybe the source (your mentioned article) where you got it was simply wrong. There are often contradictions concerning the identification of pictures.

It´s interesting that you found a picture, which might be her!!!! Until now noone of us had ever found one!

From the title it could really fit, even then I wonder, if the Princess on the picture really can be already 48 years old (she was born in
1784 and the picture is from 1832), and I am not so sure, because in my view she looks a bit younger, but the picture is only little, so.... :-\

But if it is her, it would be great...! Thanks! ;)

What do others think? Is there any bigger version of the picture available? It seems no...
« Last Edit: March 19, 2007, 08:54:40 AM by britt.25 »
La vérité est plus importante que l'amour

     Marie Bonaparte (1882-1962)