Jewish Pogroms

[Angie_H]

Why were there so many pogroms against Jewish people in Russia? Was it because they were not of the Orthodox Church? I never understood the prejudice against them.
Angie

[Robert_Hall]

Wow. have you asked a loaded question...
My opinion:
It is true that anti-semitism was pretty pervasive at the time. I gather a book "Protocols of the Elders of Zion"  propagated this,. The book, of course was a fraud.
 I have never even seen a copy of it, but  it is often referred to.
 In any case, in my opinion, the pogroms, although not as many as seem to be thought, were actually a political ruse, i.e.  scapegoats.  It was not just Jews, but "old believers" were often victims as well.
Now, with that in mind, Jews were also welcomed in  government service.  There were several personal friends of the Romanovs that were Jewish.
Personally, I do not think  the Romanovs thought of Jews any differently than anyone else. That is, they could have a close servant or friend who was Jewish, but at the same time spout vituperative racist nonsense without knowing it.   But when it came to political decisions, they were at the mercy of their ministers, who in turn, were at the mercy of the whims of power.
Alexander III seems to have been the worst in this,  but he was flawed by many circumstances, racist prejudice just being one.

[Coldstream]

I recall reading that Nicholas II personally believed that the "Protocols" were a forgery.  Whatever anti-semitism he had probably was the result of his tutorage  under Konstantine Pobedenotsev, the Procurator of the Holy Synod who, it seems, was a rabid anti-semite.  Of course, Nicholas' father was also a bit anti-semitic.  I have a Jewish son-in-law who is constantly referring to the cruelty suffered by his ancestors who lived in Imperial Russia.  I have always felt that it was not official policy to sanction pogroms, but they happened as a result of gangs of thugs such as the "Black Hundreds" being periodically let loose to vent their spleen on the local Jewish populations as a safety valve by local authorities.  I would like to know the thoughts of anyone else out there on this sensitive issue.

[polski]

sensitive issue. i dont know but  I personally think the pogroms were a sad and horrible tragedy.

this is not my thought but from some of my Jewish friends and what I've read about it in books, they believed that the pogroms were organised by the State to quell the rising dissatisfaction with the situation in Russia because the superstitious nature of many Russian people led them to believe their sufferings were caused by the non-believers of Christ and that as the Jews , in their eyes, had murdered Christ and were not true Russians as they were not Christian, and were living in their lands and were therefore, going against God's will etc etc. i think a lot of the attacks on jews were not all state operated and I don't know if the Tsar himself organised them because I remember learning that Bloody sunday wasnt a direct order from the Tsar either but a lot of Jews didnt feel particularly protected by his representatives.

I have noticed it comes up a lot in the letters of the romanovs and other nobles that they have friends etc who are Jewish but they often make side comments like ("it's a shame he's a Jew" or "pity they are jewish") which to me takes me by surprise because it would seem so rude/discrimantory to say that today. but i also read that many romanovs and nobles were shocked to hear of the pogroms.

it was part of the jewish peoples plight to be scapegoats a lot all over europe partly because i think of outdated superstition perhaps.

[Forum Admin]

Okhrana files and period government documents and accounts are all clear on one thing.  While the Pogroms did occur and were often either sanctioned, aided or "ignored" by LOCAL government officials, they were NOT part of the Imperial Government's programs.  Countless documents from these files show that from Nicholas II on down, Pogroms were forbidden not encouraged.  It was the local police and administrations that participated, against their orders from above.

[Forum Admin]

I have removed a post which claimed, without any supporting evidence, the Protocols of the Elders of Zion were "true"...This is FALSE. The Okhrana files clearly show that they were written BY Okhrana officers and are fake.  We will not tolerate this anti-Semitic nonsense. The Protocols are FICTION. period

[Forum Admin]

This point is valid.  Pogroms did exist before publication of the fictional fraud of the Protocols.  I will delete any unsubstantiated Anti Semitic remarks without notice.  Period.
This is OUR forum MCF.  There are plenty of skinhead and KKK and other similar anti semitic forums where your beliefs will be welcomed if you don't like our rational fact based forum here.

[polski]

Thankyou "forum admin" for educating me about the pogroms.

Perhaps, like Bloody Sunday, people of the time would not have known the particulars so Nicholas would have copped the blame and that is what has passed down.

I doubt this, but does anyone know if any public statements were made by the Imperial Government/the romanovs/Nicky after the pogroms>?

or services were held for the Jewish pogroms at the time?

Or have they ever?

[RomanovMartyrs]

Okhrana files and period government documents and accounts are all clear on one thing.  While the Pogroms did occur and were often either sanctioned, aided or "ignored" by LOCAL government officials, they were NOT part of the Imperial Government's programs.  Countless documents from these files show that from Nicholas II on down, Pogroms were forbidden not encouraged.  It was the local police and administrations that participated, against their orders from above.

I am trying to argue the same points in a debate. I would love some links or pdf downloads to these "countless documents." Because otherwise, I am only basing my argument on the word of the anonymous "forum admin" and so in intellectual argument it is fruitless.

Thanks in advance.

[Forum Admin]

Excuse me. I am not anonymous.  My name is Rob Moshein...One of the best sources is the book "Fontanka 16".. go find it.

[Constantinople]

The basis of the anti semitic views was the belief that the Jews were responsible for the death of Jesus.  The fact that Jesus was also jewish does not seem to be taken into account at all, or the fact that if Jesus was jewish then Christianity must be a sub sect of Judaism.  Christianity and Orthodox Christianity ils full of hair splitting arguments about things like icons are ok and icons are anti Christian to the point where they fuelled wars.  There had always been a suspicion of Jews in most Christian societies and they proved to be useful scapegoats in supersticiously religious Imperial Russia.  The fact that Jews were attracted to finance and law made them especially dangerous in Christian society (all you have to do is look at the Merchant of Venice).

[Elisabeth]

Everything that Constantinople says is true, with the proviso that European Jews were not so much "attracted" to finance and law as they were forced into these professions for lack of any other way of making a decent living. For centuries in Eastern Europe, and even in Western Europe, Jews were actually forbidden by law to own land, and since Christians were in turn forbidden to loan money, any Jew who wanted to make more than a mere subsistence income was necessarily compelled to become a money-lender on some level, the more successful ones becoming actual bankers who in some spectacular cases (like that of the Rothschilds) actually financed empires. Hence the Jews' reputation in the Christian world for being "Shylocks," not only in Shakespeare's time but for many centuries afterward. Up until this day, in fact, since there are many anti-Semites out there who still believe in the fictitious Protocols of Zion.

My own sense is that Russia has yet to deal with its long-standing tradition of anti-Semitism. IMHO this problem represents much more than simple ethnic conflict, it is more deep-seated, indeed it is a conflict of civilizations. Because both Orthodox Jews and Russian intellectuals of a certain (generally Orthodox, nationalist) stripe would have us believe that, in the case of the former, the Jews are the Chosen People, and in the case of the latter, that Russians are the Chosen People. And never the twain shall meet. Cultural and religious messianism stands in the way, and has done for centuries.

[Constantinople]

Interestingly enough, (considering that Imperial Russia considered itself an extension of both Rome and the Byzantine empire) Jews were not persecuted in either of these empires with some exceptions. 

[Constantinople]

There was no prohibition to Jews becoming doctors, merchants, administrators or many other trades that were lucrative.  As well there was not a prohibition to land ownership as long as it was within specified areas like ghettos.  But finance was attractive due to the fact that Christians were barred from lending money at interest.

[RomanovMartyrs]

Excuse me. I am not anonymous.  My name is Rob Moshein...One of the best sources is the book "Fontanka 16".. go find it.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to sound rude...but this IS the internet and I cannot really source a "forum admin" as a basis for an argument. With your permission, however, I will cite your real name. I will certainly look into Fontanka 16. I appreciate you referencing this.