Author Topic: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures  (Read 166288 times)

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Offline lancashireladandre

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Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
« Reply #120 on: December 29, 2005, 03:15:54 PM »
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Thank you for this info!Do you know what happened to Helene after the WWI?Did she keep in touch with the Yussupovs?

Helen of M-S ( born in St Petersburg 16th Jan 1857)was the daughter of Grand Duchess Catherine Mickhailovna of Russia and DukeGeorge of M-S himself of a junior line of that North German ruling family.She married on13/12/1891 Prince Albert of Saxe-Altenburg (1843-1902)of a junior branch of another minor german ruling family.The marriage seems to have had no surviving issue.After her flight out of Russia (via the Black sea) she seems to have returned to Remplin in Germany (where she had married,so perhaps a Anhalt property), here she died on August 28th 1936.

Offline Annie

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Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
« Reply #121 on: December 29, 2005, 04:59:44 PM »
I do believe that Zenaida would have been happier with someone who shared her love for the arts, instead her austere husband who hated dancing and theatre, even shutting down their personal theatres and forbidding the boys to act in them. She would have been happier with KR, IMO. It is possible she 'had' to marry Felix since she may have been pregnant. I think this because of the small, quiet wedding consider who she was, and the fact that Felix says in his memoirs that his brother was nearing his 26th bday when shot in the summer of 1908 which would make him born in 1882. Zenaida and old Felix were married in April 1882 and celebrated their silver anniversary in April 1907. Easy to add up, Nikolai was on the way when they got married. ;)

Offline AkshayChavan

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Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
« Reply #122 on: December 29, 2005, 05:38:59 PM »
This question has been in my mind for a long time. It is hypothetical question."Suppose" Zenaida had married Sandro or KR would it have been permitted by royal family? Would they have been sent to exile like princess paley or Natasha wulfert? Do u think the children would have been allowed title of princes yussupov?

It is really stupid that Grand dukes could marry not-so-smart princess of minor families, but the stunningly beautifull ,charming and kind Zinaida , scion of one of noblest families of Russia could never be a Czarina.

Offline Annie

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Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
« Reply #123 on: December 29, 2005, 06:53:43 PM »
I don't think the Yussoupovs would be considered an 'unequal' marriage worthy of banishment, but the person would likely have to sign away their rights to succession and have a 'morgatanic' marriage as Irina did when she married Felix.

Offline lancashireladandre

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Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
« Reply #124 on: December 30, 2005, 03:13:53 AM »
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I do believe that Zenaida would have been happier with someone who shared her love for the arts, instead her austere husband who hated dancing and theatre, even shutting down their personal theatres and forbidding the boys to act in them. She would have been happier with KR, IMO. It is possible she 'had' to marry Felix since she may have been pregnant. I think this because of the small, quiet wedding consider who she was, and the fact that Felix says in his memoirs that his brother was nearing his 26th bday when shot in the summer of 1908 which would make him born in 1882. Zenaida and old Felix were married in April 1882 and celebrated their silver anniversary in April 1907. Easy to add up, Nikolai was on the way when they got married. ;)

I think you must remember something about Felix, HIS ARITHMETIC WAS NEVER GOOD. We have talked before about Zenaida's marriage AND sorted out the fact that she did not need a "shotgun wedding" ( rich people DO have quite weddings, for the simple reason, privacy). In his memoirs Felix wrote of his great grandmother, Zenaida Ivanovna, Countess de Chaveau "who was a 100 years old" when she died in 1897. The old girl was born in 1809 !!!. Felix liked to put fact and fiction in a cocktail shaker to spice events up a bit. Zenaida might have been happier with KR or one of the Obolensky brothers or even Sandro Battenberg. But she picked who she wanted and no doubt was very happy with her husband in other ways....

Offline AkshayChavan

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Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
« Reply #125 on: January 05, 2006, 09:47:59 AM »
In most books , Count Felix Sumarokoff-elston comes across as honest and upright man. Greg King writes they had a very stable marriage. The only negative picture comes from Felix's "Lost Splendor". What i suspect is that because Count Elston disapproved of his son's behaviour unlike Zinaida who indulged him, felix potrayed his father as a "monster" who made his beautifull mother unhappy. Maybe Felix "twisted" his father's personality like other things in his book.

Offline Annie

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Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
« Reply #126 on: January 05, 2006, 10:38:20 AM »
A 'stable' marriage means nothing. I know several couples personally who dislike each other in many ways, but to the outside their marriage appears 'stable' because they are still together and have never openly filed to separate. I do like King's book, but I would say Felix knew more about his father, and his  parents' marriage, than he did. While some may accuse him of lying about things like Rasputin's murder, I would say he'd have no reason not to be honest about how he felt about family relationships.

Offline lancashireladandre

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Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
« Reply #127 on: January 05, 2006, 02:40:24 PM »
The boundaries of a marriage are the business of the two people involved.Nobody else.Many people are married but are certainly not "Darby & Joan".Zenaida and her husband stuck together for whatever reason.Maybe it was true love, maybe it was out of pride who knows.They could have divorced it was not unknown in their circles.Zenaida's cousin Marie Narishkin divorced Prince Platon Obolensky ( the father of her 2 sons) to marry General de Return.Anastasia of Montenegro divorced The Duke of Leutchenberg to marry Grand Duke Nicholas.There were many more stories.So IF things had been sour there was an escape route.Their marriage was perhaps like so many others of that era,that world.They stayed together out of affection,common ambition whatever.....So their marriage was in its way as succesful as any other.

Offline brnbg aka: liljones1968

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Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
« Reply #128 on: January 15, 2006, 03:51:38 PM »
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The boundaries of a marriage are the business of the two people involved.Nobody else.Many people are married but are certainly not "Darby & Joan".Zenaida and her husband stuck together for whatever reason.Maybe it was true love, maybe it was out of pride who knows.They could have divorced it was not unknown in their circles.Zenaida's cousin Marie Narishkin divorced Prince Platon Obolensky ( the father of her 2 sons) to marry General de Return.Anastasia of Montenegro divorced The Duke of Leutchenberg to marry Grand Duke Nicholas.There were many more stories.So IF things had been sour there was an escape route.Their marriage was perhaps like so many others of that era,that world.They stayed together out of affection,common ambition whatever.....So their marriage was in its way as succesful as any other.




personally speaking, i prefer to believe that Zenaïda & Feliks found a sort of happiness together....of whatever type & to whatever degree.

however, a cynical thought occurred to me, and maybe someone else knows more about it:    in many parts of the world, during the time period being discussed, a woman's property wasn't really hers.    her dowry became her husband's, and indeed, anything left to her by her father (or any other relative, for that matter) immediately became her husband's property.    a woman's body was not even her own --- in essence, a woman, and all that she had, was, first, the property of her father, and then, the property of her husband.     now, my question is this:  what were the property rights in Russia during Zenaïda's life?   what had her dowry consisted of?     (even though it's "traditional" purpose was to aid in establishing the marriage home,  in almost all cases, in most countries, dowries became the husband's property automatically, sort of like a payment for marrying the bride.)     does anyone know just how much "control" the elder Feliks had over the assets that had belonged to his in-laws?      

Zenaïda seems to have been a demure-type who would have deferred to her husband....so it may have been that, as sole heir & last of her line, it was she who legally owned the assets, but it was her husband who, by law or by deference, actually controlled them.

if any of the above applied to Zenaïda, her husband & the Yusupov wealth, it could very well be that she simply had too much to lose in a divorce, regardless of whether or not divorce was an option.


any thoughts?


"when i die, i hope i go like my grandfather --
peacefully in my sleep; not screaming & in terror,
like the passengers in his car."

-- anonymous
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Offline Annie

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Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
« Reply #129 on: January 15, 2006, 05:48:33 PM »
I think I did hear that he controlled it. Felix was unhappy that he shut off all the theatres, didn't use them and forbid the kids to play in them. This was one reason Felix didn't like the way his father did his mother and thought she'd have been happier with a 'different sort of man.' He also said his father always had 'an entourage of people he couldn't live without' hanging around, playing cards, drinking, acting up. He even took them on trips with the family. Felix said he, his brother and yes, his mother did not like this. They couldn't stop him. I am really sorry for her she didn't get to enjoy her estates as much in the last days because of her husband.

From the way Felix describes her, she may not have been so demure .She fancied herself Catherine the great, and was upset to think he was not going to keep all the estates when he inherited them (he had plans to set them up as places for artists and other creative people, of course the revolution ruined his plans anyway) I don't think she hated him enough to divorce him, but I don't think they were totally happy. Like I said before, this is common, even today.

There may have been times when she pined alone in her room (and from what I see of the pictures, they did keep separate rooms, and she did stop having kids rather young, so we may speculate they may not have slept together for years) wondering if she should have taken KR. Sandro had a crush on her too, and she did dance with him at balls since her husband didn't dance and she loved to (according to Sandro's memoirs)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Annie »

Offline ConstanceMarie

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Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
« Reply #130 on: March 02, 2006, 05:36:28 PM »
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url=http://imageshack.us]



He didn't have the img tags right, I fixed them, so if it still doesn't work it must be the site doesn't allow linking. Try using just the addy itself copy and pasted in your browswer (unless pic posts- my comp. too slow to edit this again)

Offline Vassili_Vorontsoff

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Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
« Reply #131 on: March 05, 2006, 09:18:22 AM »
Thanks Constance Marie,

I'm not really endowed in forums,I'll try to better myself for the last time...sorry for the bad level of my english...

What do you think about the image?
Vassili

Offline AkshayChavan

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Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
« Reply #132 on: March 05, 2006, 01:36:22 PM »
There is a resemblance to Zenaida. The lady could be Zenaida.

Offline Valmont

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Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
« Reply #133 on: March 08, 2006, 07:19:40 PM »
And the place could be Archangelskoye....

Arturo Vega-Llausás
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Offline dp5486

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Re: Princess Zenaida Yusupova - discussion and pictures
« Reply #134 on: March 21, 2006, 02:43:12 PM »
By chance, does anyone know where Zenaide yept her Faberge egg? From what I read on one of the Faberge sites, it was found in one of the secret hiding places in the Moika palace.

Thanks!