Romanov lineage, what would you need?

[charley]

  I have an interesting question.  If a person came forward today and said that they were the child of one of the grand duchesses and they said they could supply the proof, what would you say that proof would have to be for you to believe?  DNA alone seems way to controversial. I am sure if someone offered a poor scientist a million dollars, he may just have the results turn out a certain way.  So what else would someone need as proof ?

[LisaDavidson]

You assume that those who can sequence mtDNA are "poor scientists" who would manipulate test results to make a buck or two. Are you intentionally defaming these men and women or are you a writer of dime store novels looking for help in plotting?

Test results such as this would need to be replicated in other labs, so in addition to smearing the scientists by assuming they are shills awaiting purchase by the highest bidder, you are also assuming they would conspire to falsify results. Have you sought professional help for your pathological mistrust of DNA scientists?

Most of the people you are maligning are more interested in curing diseases and furthering their science, so I think your assumptions are grossly unfair to them and the scientific community as a whole.

You might be interested to know that a family with sufficient funds to do the kind of dirty tricks you describe sought confirmation of a Romanov connection. I'm sorry to tell you the scientists did a straight on test and found no match to the Romanov DNA.

[Lemur]

The scientists were not 'poor' and were not bribed. These conspiracy theories really need to stop. AA wasn't AN whether we like it or not.

[helenazar]

I don't see why anyone would be so surprised that someone like "charley" expresses these sentiments, while a couple of so-called  "historians" and "authors" still go around promoting these very same DNA theories. "Charley" is probably just an innocent reader who happened to see these ramblings and trusted them, so can you blame him/her? The real culprits are these "professionals" who still argue that DNA science should not be trusted just because they want to believe in Anna Anderson... Why not suggest that they get professional help, along with "charley", for their pathological mistrust of science? 

[charley]

   I was not talking about the scientist who did DNA testing already, I was refering to if someone came forward now, and said they had proof and maybe a DNA test. Some people are so mean and ready to attack anyone who comes along. I have not read any of the post on DNA here, I frankly do not understand any of it.
   I am an innocent bystander who was not involved in any previous discussions.  All I wanted to know is if anyone ever thought about proof other than DNA. So, from your very hurtful posts, I assume I am not allowed to ask this question? Maybe I should have posted it in the "having fun section", because this is definitely not fun here. It is actually kind of frightening, like being attacked by some starving vultures. It was simply just a thought, something I was thinking about one day. You people are so cruel.

[LisaDavidson]

  I have an interesting question.  If a person came forward today and said that they were the child of one of the grand duchesses and they said they could supply the proof, what would you say that proof would have to be for you to believe?  DNA alone seems way to controversial. I am sure if someone offered a poor scientist a million dollars, he may just have the results turn out a certain way.  So what else would someone need as proof ?

It is unfortunate that you see replies to your question as "cruel". Perhaps it has to do with how you posed your question.

DNA is not controversial at all. The science behind DNA is not well understood by "civilians". Unfortunately, these included the OJ Simpson jury, for starters. Many who frequent this forum, for others.

To break down your question, if someone said they were related to one of the grand duchesses and had proof, they would be given a DNA test. It is likely that the samples would be sent to different labs to avoid any mistakes.

Members of this forum rightly took exception to your statement I am sure if someone offered a poor scientist a million dollars, he may just have the results turn out a certain way.. Your statement is insulting to scientists. Not to mention, ignorant of the way these identifications are made and the processes involved.

Anything other than DNA proof would at this point not be believable.

[Pegschalet]

I think everyone misunderstood Charley's question.  She was not asking about DNA, she was asking other than DNA, is there any proof you would accept.

I think Charley poses an interesting question.  In court cases, chain of custody of the evidence can make or break a case.  In the OJ Simpson case the DNA was solid but the defense was able to attack the chain of custody which then casted doubt upon the DNA.  I think Charley's question deserves discussion.  And as we must all remember these are hypothetical scenerios.

Charley what would you accept as proof other than DNA?

[charley]

   I think that if someone of some authority,maybe a head of a country came forward with information, I might believe them.  If they could tell about a specific plan and answer detailed questions.
  My point about the DNA is that according to this website, the Romanov's were killed in 1918 in Russia.  The DNA testing is 100% positive without a shadow of a doubt, no question, no discussion.  So if someone came forward today with DNA backing their claim, how could they possible get anyone to believe them?  Romanov lineage, what would you need? DNA would not be enough for some people!!!  I still would like to know what type of evidence people would need. It is just a question. What about a pictures that showed all of them together? I think this is a very interesting subject. If anyone does not find this interesting, feel free to leave.  This post is just about what evidence people would need, other than DNA. If this is discussed on another thread, I will go there. There are, "246,071 Posts in 8252 topics". Some of us have not read them all, especially Newbies and when you search for a topic, it doesn't always work right. Maybe the people who are sick and tired of talking about various aspects of the Romanov's should take a break from the web for awhile. New people want to come forward and discuss things and they are not allowed, because veterans are sick and tired of going over it again and again. Why they just don't respond is beyond, "people like me".

[Pegschalet]

Interesting point.  I have been doing a little research on DNA in court cases and came accross and interesting one.  A man was sent to prison for raping an eleven year old based on DNA.  Eleven people testified on his behalf that he was out of state at the time giving him a solid alibi but he was still convicted based on the DNA.  His conviction was overturned on appeal when the DNA was retested and it was determined human error was involved.

As far as other proof, I would like to see something with a chain of custory.  For example, the Russian Orthodox Church in Belgium which has been rumored to have relics of the family.  What if the Priest( not sure if that is correct term) came forward with a story intrusted to him by the Imperial Family.  Would he be credible?  What about another scenerio?  The British Royal Family.  Could they have publicly appeared to abandon their family members to satisfy public opinion while secretly working behind the scenes to rescue them as some evidence suggests.  What if information was released from an archive?

It's so much fun to speculate.

[charley]

This "chain of custody" sounds interesting.  What exactly does it mean and how does it work? And would it be enough in this scenario?

[Pegschalet]

Basically if someone came forward with a story, you would trace it backwards looking for evidence of truth.  If it was an item, say a piece of jewelry like a ring which was found in a cabinet with a false bottom.  You would look for evidence of how it got there.  Say the piece of furniture was purchased in an antique store and the owner mentions something rattling around but doesn't know what it is or how it got there.  He doesn't want to ruin the piece of furniture but cutting into something of value.  You take the piece home and start researching it.  Say you recognize it as a piece of furniture from a picture of Maria's room in the Alexander Palace.  Upon further research you find an antedote recorded by one of the servants who mentioned that Maria had taken one of her Father's rings and hid it in the cabinet with all the drawers.  You find the story fasinating and further research the cabinet.  You discover it was made by____ who designed cabinets with secret compartments and that by opening the drawers in a certain way you would open the secret compartment.  You play with your cabinet everyday for three years and finally one day you hit the magic combination and the secret bottom drops out and you now hold in your hand a beautiful ring which just happens to match the one on page______ of the Tsar's Jewelry Album.  What would you think?  I would be convinced that ring belonged to the Tsar.

Now how could we do that with a person?  Say a woman steps forward after all these years and states I am the daughter of GrandDuchess Maria.  She weaves her story of her Mother's escape by train through Vladivostock and then on to Japan.  This woman who would be in her sixties or seventies, has quite a bit of documentation.  Let's call her Katerina.  Katerina has a pass signed by the Bolsheviks authorizing train travel for Svetlona(the name Maria assumed).  Svetlona was rescued with minor wounds after the confusion at the Ipatiev House by a young man(guard) who had fallen in love with her beauty and quiet dignity while under captivity.   Realizing they could never be together he helped arranged her escape through Siberia.  When Katerina came out publically with her story, a family in Russia who was a decendent of this young man comes forward with the same story which was passed down in whispers through the family in the communist years. 

Anyways.  You would continue to follow Katerina's story of her Mother and match up the facts.  For example a piece of jewelry that Alix had recorded as giving to Maria etc.

So we match the facts and now comes the inevitable DNA test.  Katerina is not a match with the DNA strands from the bones in Russia but she does come up as matching the sample held by the relatives of Tikhon in Canada who were intrigued enough by her story to finally cough up their sample for comparison and another test was done on the relic of Ella's finger and it is determined they are relatives as well.  So now where does  that leave us?  Who do we believe?

[Valmont]

Wow.. you point an interesting scenario, both based on DNA evidence...yes, I think I would say "Ooookkkkeeyyy.... what else do we have?"

[charley]

   If a person came forward today, would the Russians allow a new sample to be taken. I bet not!!  If "DNA is not controversial", than why is this website filled with debates about it and why have scientist come up with different findings? Why do some judges not allow DNA to be used in court?
   I think if DNA was tested with a person and the Grand Duchess Olga (In Canada) I might be apt to believe it.  You see we all know it is Olga, no controversy there.
  I just thought of something, what if Olga left information about the Tsar in the back of one of her paintings? Would people believe? Aren't some of her family members still alive? 

[charley]

I was just thinking about the chain of custody.  If the Tsar gave details to Olga and then Olga gave them to her son and then to his son, would that be a chain of custody.  Has any of this Romanov survival been put into a court of law and tried? I remember a court trying a case after someone had died.  It was on tv, I think it was simliar to this. I can't remember the case though.

[Pegschalet]

Valmont,

One of my favorite scenerios is based on Sophie Bux's book "Left Behind".  It is an awesome story of escape and survival.  I like to imagine she could slipped a Romanov out with her to Vladivostok.