Did Anna Anderson/ Franziska Schanzkowska believe she was Anastasia?

[Bob_the_builder]

Did she? I think that she wanted to get away from her past life, and so she caused herself to believe she was Anastasia, which is why she was able to keep up the act from 1921 to 1984, because to herself it's who she was. Even when recovering from morphine and under the influence of strong medicines, she never gave any indication of a person who was intentionally playing a part. I think that's why she was able to keep it up and was able to convince so many people, because she genuinely believed that she was Anastasia Nicholaevna.
I've also heard her speak, and it's really dreadful. When people asked her about the murders, she really was horrified in my opinion. I think she really believed her loved ones had been murdered before her eyes, which is why I also think she cried when looking at pictures of the Tsar and his family. I don't think she thought it was an act.

[Annie]

My opinion is in the beginning she saw it as a chance to escape her past life, which was so miserable she attempted suicide. I think in the beginning she was very frightened of being found out, like when she hid her face under the sheets. I also think she was still coherent enough to know her true identity and afraid of being caught as late as the 1930's when the trial started. I believe she was terrified of her siblings exposing her, and convinced them not to to save a lot of humiliation and possible legal and financial rammifications for them all. I do think she slipped farther over the edge the older she got, and by the time she married John Mahanan in the 60's, she believed it, and did until her dying day.

[Bob_the_builder]

That's very interesting Annie. But I was just wondering, do you think she was in her right mind enough while under all that medication to be able to keep up the act?

Edit: I'm referring to 1925 when she almost died and shrunk to a gaunt 75 1bs! I wonder how different history would have been if she had died there. We may have been left wondering if she were Anastasia forever. Or better yet, it would have taken alot longer for us to learn some of the details of the massacre because alot of useful information came out of the trials.

[ferrymansdaughter]

 "But I was just wondering, do you think she was in her right mind enough while under all that medication to be able to keep up the act"


Apparently doctors say is it impossible to consciously lie whilst under the influence of morphine.  This means she believed she was Anastasia.  Several doctors who examined her in the 1920s  also said she was either genuine or not deliberately faking.

Liz

[Bob_the_builder]

"But I was just wondering, do you think she was in her right mind enough while under all that medication to be able to keep up the act"


Apparently doctors say is it impossible to consciously lie whilst under the influence of morphine.  This means she believed she was Anastasia.  Several doctors who examined her in the 1920s  also said she was either genuine or not deliberately faking.

Liz

That's exactly what I'm saying. There is no way she could have faked it under those circumstances. It's pretty impossible she didn't believe she was Anastasia.

[FaithWhiteRose]

I think she eventually did believe in her claimant, though occassionally her concsience reminded her no.

[BobAtchison]

She knew she wasn't Anastasia.  FS wasn't stupid.  She was always manipulating people like the con-artist she was.

When FS was senile she was at a Faberge lecture at the Museum of Fine Arts in Richmond and started speaking Polish in front of the crowd of people there.  There were Poles there who were astonished to hear her speak their language.  Funny how she couldn't speak Russian but she could speak Polish.

[Belochka]

I think she eventually did believe in her claimant, though occassionally her concsience reminded her no.

How very sad that the demented lady had no moral conscience in her final months to redeem herself.

Margarita

[ChristineM]

Belochka

I'm sorry Belochka, but that is really quite an unkind thing to write.   If, as seems the case, the woman was demented, isn't that enough?   Just because she was demented in a style which does not suit you, this does not make her dementia any less tragic.   

I cannot find it in my heart to condemn anyone who suffers mental illness and I believe that is the key to this story.   This mentally disturbed young woman was deliberately groomed (and I don't for a minute believe it was by the Soviets - they had plenty other problems to deal with at the time) to suit their purposes.   Don't you think the most likely thing to have happened was a case of transferred memory.   (I know two people who are victims of this - one of them world famous - whose memories have been deliberately twisted/tortured by 'well meaning' psychologists).   It takes no time at all for an emotionally vulnerable, and in this case, physically compromised person, to succumb.   (Actually, as you will know, Belochka, such a mental process can also spontaneously occur as a result of acute infection)

The real question which should be addressed, and not before time - who did the grooming.   It was obviously someone close to the Imperial Court.   The next question is WHY?   It is a nonsense that AA/FS gleaned all the information from books.   One simple example - books did not inform a peasant woman that the Grand Duchess Anastasia Nicholaevna suffered a severe case of halux vulgus - to the extent she was able to replicate this, fairly common, condition.   

This grooming was sufficiently successful to persuade members and friends of the family (if, in some cases, only temporarily) that the woman was Grand Duchess Anastasia Nicholaevna.   This grooming was sufficiently successful to force the, notoriously tight-fisted, Earl Mountbatten of Burma to fund not one but two hugely expensive court cases in an endeavour to disprove the claims.   

There is much more to the story than was she/wasn't she???   Issues which have either been ignored or overlooked - lost in the miasma of emotions engendered by the subject.

It is my contention that Anna Anderson/Franziska Schanzkowska was a victim.   A victim of circumstances not of her creation and, ultimately, outwith her control.   This has been conveniently ignored for almost 90 years.   WHY?     

Finally, I hope ALL of us have sufficient time - and awareness -  prior to our deaths, to redeem ourselves.

tsaria

[Greenowl]

The real question which should be addressed, and not before time - who did the grooming.   It was obviously someone close to the Imperial Court.   The next question is WHY?   It is a nonsense that AA/FS gleaned all the information from books.   One simple example - books did not inform a peasant woman that the Grand Duchess Anastasia Nicholaevna suffered a severe case of halux vulgus - to the extent she was able to replicate this, fairly common, condition.   

This grooming was sufficiently successful to persuade members and friends of the family (if, in some cases, only temporarily) that the woman was Grand Duchess Anastasia Nicholaevna.   This grooming was sufficiently successful to force the, notoriously tight-fisted, Earl Mountbatten of Burma to fund not one but two hugely expensive court cases in an endeavour to disprove the claims.   

There is much more to the story than was she/wasn't she???   Issues which have either been ignored or overlooked - lost in the miasma of emotions engendered by the subject.

It is my contention that Anna Anderson/Franziska Schanzkowska was a victim.   A victim of circumstances not of her creation and, ultimately, outwith her control.   This has been conveniently ignored for almost 90 years.   WHY?

WELL SAID TSARIA! That totally reflects my opinion and as far as I can remember, I made almost identical points in the "Decoy" thread.

Greenowl   

[Bob_the_builder]

She knew she wasn't Anastasia.  FS wasn't stupid.  She was always manipulating people like the con-artist she was.

When FS was senile she was at a Faberge lecture at the Museum of Fine Arts in Richmond and started speaking Polish in front of the crowd of people there.  There were Poles there who were astonished to hear her speak their language.  Funny how she couldn't speak Russian but she could speak Polish.

But FS was pretty stupid was she not?  Her teachers certainly thought she was. But AA/FS didn't really speak Polish even in her younger years. She spoke mainly German and a little "Kashoub".

And if she was crazy, there is a chance she did believe she was Anastasia. I don't see why not. You can't conciously lie when you are under all those strong medicines. It just isn't possible. I promise you if she would have been given a lie detector test, she would have passed it. All the evidence clearly shows she thought she was Anastasia in my opinon. Every psychiatrist who examined her throughout her entire life certainly thought so.

[Bob_the_builder]

Belochka

I'm sorry Belochka, but that is really quite an unkind thing to write.   If, as seems the case, the woman was demented, isn't that enough?   Just because she was demented in a style which does not suit you, this does not make her dementia any less tragic.   

I cannot find it in my heart to condemn anyone who suffers mental illness and I believe that is the key to this story.   This mentally disturbed young woman was deliberately groomed (and I don't for a minute believe it was by the Soviets - they had plenty other problems to deal with at the time) to suit their purposes.   Don't you think the most likely thing to have happened was a case of transferred memory.   (I know two people who are victims of this - one of them world famous - whose memories have been deliberately twisted/tortured by 'well meaning' psychologists).   It takes no time at all for an emotionally vulnerable, and in this case, physically compromised person, to succumb.   (Actually, as you will know, Belochka, such a mental process can also spontaneously occur as a result of acute infection)

The real question which should be addressed, and not before time - who did the grooming.   It was obviously someone close to the Imperial Court.   The next question is WHY?   It is a nonsense that AA/FS gleaned all the information from books.   One simple example - books did not inform a peasant woman that the Grand Duchess Anastasia Nicholaevna suffered a severe case of halux vulgus - to the extent she was able to replicate this, fairly common, condition.   

This grooming was sufficiently successful to persuade members and friends of the family (if, in some cases, only temporarily) that the woman was Grand Duchess Anastasia Nicholaevna.   This grooming was sufficiently successful to force the, notoriously tight-fisted, Earl Mountbatten of Burma to fund not one but two hugely expensive court cases in an endeavour to disprove the claims.   

There is much more to the story than was she/wasn't she???   Issues which have either been ignored or overlooked - lost in the miasma of emotions engendered by the subject.

It is my contention that Anna Anderson/Franziska Schanzkowska was a victim.   A victim of circumstances not of her creation and, ultimately, outwith her control.   This has been conveniently ignored for almost 90 years.   WHY?     

Finally, I hope ALL of us have sufficient time - and awareness -  prior to our deaths, to redeem ourselves.

tsaria

Exactly Tsaria. People who are mentally ill don't need to be judged with the same measuring stick as normal people. They don't know what they're doing. People assume just because AA was an imposter, she must have been knowing what she was doing all along but people who make these accusations don't have much expirience with the mentally ill. I've worked at a nursing home for years and there are people who vehemently believe things which are not true but they are definately going to defend it when told they are wrong because they do not believe they are wrong.

[Belochka]

Don't you think the most likely thing to have happened was a case of transferred memory.

The only memory transferance that I am aware of takes place at the microscopic cellular level (T and B cells) and not as a psychologic phenomenon.

Belochka

I'm sorry Belochka, but that is really quite an unkind thing to write.   If, as seems the case, the woman was demented, isn't that enough?   Just because she was demented in a style which does not suit you, this does not make her dementia any less tragic.   

I cannot find it in my heart to condemn anyone who suffers mental illness and I believe that is the key to this story.   This mentally disturbed young woman was deliberately groomed (and I don't for a minute believe it was by the Soviets - they had plenty other problems to deal with at the time) to suit their purposes.   Don't you think the most likely thing to have happened was a case of transferred memory. 

The real question which should be addressed, and not before time - who did the grooming.   It was obviously someone close to the Imperial Court.   The next question is WHY? 

... A victim of circumstances not of her creation and, ultimately, outwith her control.   This has been conveniently ignored for almost 90 years.   WHY?     

tsaria

I have always been sympathetic towards those who are challenged by mental issues. I do believe that Fräulein unbekannte was indeed a very troubled individual to have even comtemplated suicide, but she had recovered sufficiently to be influenced by dominant individuals who rather than helping to reconcile with her own true identity instead she was selfishly offered an identity that was not her own.

Had she said the simple word "Sorry" in any language, it would have at least contributed a small way towards her public redemption (and further recovery issues) directed to all the people whom she had offended by assuming the false identity of another far more noble person than herself.

What she and her backers did was steal the identity of the murdered Grand Duchess. It was a criminal act of grand proportions. With her ready acceptance of becoming another individual, she knowingly denied the priviledge of her own birthrite and her own family. (That denial was a morally reprehensible scenario actioned by herself). It must be recognized that the actions of her co-conspirators was equally morally repugnant. 

She was enjoined with her co-conspirators in one of the most famous deceptions of the last century. I can only agree that the initial phase was not within her control, but later, following her emotional recovery she did in fact control her situation. Otherwise why would this Fräulein perform at her convenience? She knew whom to speak to and who was to be ignored. To be so selective she would have comprehended more than adequately why she must do that. It was a calculating act that too many had accepted because of their sympathy towards her alleged plight. Numerous excuses had flowed to "protect" her from exposure.

Indeed there are questions that have remained without answers, and with the passage of time, we the public will probably never learn all the fine details to our satisfaction.

I unable to feel sympathetic towards a person such as she who was a criminal in my eyes, who knowingly committed a crime and failed to ask for forgiveness.

The fact that she became senile is a consequence that she faced in her life's journey, (and perhaps that will be my fate as well), but this lady clearly undertood her wrongful actions, she must have had a moral conscience, but she chose not to exercise it. That was her everlasting failing.

Then again in the end it is not for us the living to judge her anymore is it?

Margarita