Author Topic: Grand Duke Ludwig IV  (Read 147770 times)

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Eric_Lowe

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Re: Grand Duke Ludwig IV
« Reply #150 on: September 11, 2012, 12:46:10 PM »
Not exactly. Princess Karl (Elisabeth of Prussia) of Hesse was pretty much alive, so Alice did not have an entirely free hand in doing work as you suggested. Contrary to what was believed, Alice was viewed as a "foreigner" and she had to fight battles to get her ideas in place. In that she was very much like her sister in Berlin.

Yes. But compared with Margaret of York, Mary Stuart, Mary II and the Hanoverian princess, Holland was well tuned to British Princesses marry into their country unlike Darmstadt. Yes But Elisabeth married into the Hesse-Homburg line and not Hesse-Darmstadt line. In fact later Vicky lived closer to Elisabeth's house outside Frankfurt than Darmstadt. 

Yes. It did not strain the love of the sisters, but it left Darmstadt drained of resources. Alice had to dig into her dowry money to help rebuilt her homes. When she want to visit her mother in Britain, she had to beg for money to come visit, and also when she does go to holiday, she had to go to cheap hotels instead of nice resorts (unlike Vicky).

The war did not hurried her to the grave but it left a strain on her health (that never been strong like Bertie & Vicky). Even her marriage in her later years left her unfulfilled intellectually. In fact her more radical views made her enemies in Germany. By the time she died, Empress Augusta said it was a good thing she died, she almost became an atheist. I think she would be more appreciated in the Hague and a more cosmopolitan surrounding. I still think place wise, the Hague trumps Darmstadt. 

Thomas_Hesse

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Re: Grand Duke Ludwig IV
« Reply #151 on: September 11, 2012, 03:11:51 PM »
Prince and Princess Karl lived a very secluded life - the Princess thought it inappropriate to take on her duties at her age. So Alice was indeed very much the First Lady.
The money coming from her dowry was in fact used to errect the Neues Palais but they moved in in march 1866 - month before the war would break out. Alice's private money had nothing at all to do with the war payments from Hesse to the Prussians........
Where do you get all these information??
Of course she had to fight for some alterations... but this has always been the case in all classes and circumstances.
Prince Albert was thought a mad man when trying to errect a Palace of glass for the Gret Exhibition... hardly to believe because he lived in the not so much backwater London! :)

Eric_Lowe

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Re: Grand Duke Ludwig IV
« Reply #152 on: September 11, 2012, 08:42:25 PM »
I read the letters that Alice wrote to her mother asking for money, she definitely wasn't rich like Vicky that is a fact. Gerald Noel. pg. 135 After the war " finance became an increasing worry to Alice and Louis, The former, whose allowance was meagre, often had to ask her mother for help."

As for Alice's health (pg. 136) "Apart from financial worries, which were to be with her to the grave. her health from 1866-7 (immediately after the war) onward became the cause of increasing concern. More and more of her letters to Louis mentioned the worsen pains of neuralgia and rheumatism, of excessive tiredness, strain and headaches. " and this was odd since "Alice was never considered particularly delicate in her younger days"...The strain of the war has broken Alice and later on, she even had a sort of nervous breakdown. That is why I argue that going to Darmstadt was a mistake.


Thomas_Hesse

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Re: Grand Duke Ludwig IV
« Reply #153 on: September 12, 2012, 02:36:20 AM »
Yes but this had nothing to do with the war - they wanted that huge and richly furnished Palace.... you don't get that for nothing...
And of course the Hohenzollern had more money - they were the leading family of Germany with a much vaster country and income...
Eric - please look at a map. How can u compare these states?!

The real "breakdown" took place when her son died in 1873 - before Alice suffered a lot due to the war because she was also pregnant with Pcss Irene and was in fear for her husband's life.
Noel writes that it was more or less psychological....

Eric_Lowe

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Re: Grand Duke Ludwig IV
« Reply #154 on: September 12, 2012, 09:52:30 AM »
The war did depleted resources and Alice did put her own money to fund her projects. She would not have to do that had she been in Holland.
As crown princess of Holland, she would have been richer and avoided the war that wrecked her health.
Yes there is no comparison between Holland and Hesse. I took the words out of your mouth.

Yes the psychological breakdown part took place later, but the war laid the foundation to wreck her health and did "hurried her to an early grave".

Offline Vecchiolarry

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Re: Grand Duke Ludwig IV
« Reply #155 on: September 12, 2012, 01:07:59 PM »
Hi,

Stress no matter when it occurs can manifest itself months or years later.
It is entirely possible that the stress of the 1866 and 1870 wars and the deaths of Fritzi & Marie could have affected Alice later in 1878 and brought on reduced health and death.

Stress is something we today are studying in greater depth and learning more & more its effects on health

Larry

Eric_Lowe

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Re: Grand Duke Ludwig IV
« Reply #156 on: September 12, 2012, 02:36:20 PM »
Thanks Larry,

That is what I am trying to say. Had Alice got a better Dutch Prince and went to the Hague instead of Darmstadt. Her life would have been less tragic. It is more to her credit that she was able to achieve much in Darmstadt even though she had to work harder to achieve those goals.


Maria_Pavlovna

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Re: Grand Duke Ludwig IV
« Reply #157 on: September 12, 2012, 06:04:48 PM »
saying a what if about Princess Alice is  pointless, like any other past royals,  but I understand if she married the Dutch Prince, her life would have turn out differently - however its still useless with what ifs and "personal opinions"  - like "she beautiful", "she got fat" or "she didnt age will" which isnt a fact, as looks and beauty,  can be a major populair opinional fact, however its STILL an opinion and find really pointless and annoying here at this forum. 

however that fact is Princess Alice married Louis of Hesse etc and thats it, cant change history and when people write here (or anything else) states an opinion or a what if, sometimes others would think its true and spread more fake facts.

Offline CountessKate

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Re: Grand Duke Ludwig IV
« Reply #158 on: September 13, 2012, 03:25:20 AM »
Returning to the actual subject of this thread, I think it is a tribute to the character of Ludwig that his wife could actually write him a letter in which she rebuked him for the 'childish' letter she had received from him, then morphing into the - for the time - extraordinary statement that "There has never been any lack of love-only with time, the disillusion became harder to bear....I longed for a real companion, for, apart from that, life had nothing to offer me in Darmstadt.  I could have been quite happy and contented living in a cottage, if I had been able to share my intellectual interests and intellectual aspirations with a husband whose strong, protective love would have guided me round the rocks strewn in my way by my own nature, outward circumstances and the excess of my opinions."  This of course has been the great marker for those who consider Alice wasted in Darmstadt, but it is clear from her own remarks that she did not believe a wider stage would have made her happier.  She then goes on to say "So naturally I am bitterly disappointed with myself when I look back........and this realisation, my darling, often makes me unjust towards yourself-for one always bears the blame for everything in one's self-I know that now.....But let us go on helping each other-honestly-we cannot let ourselves be paralyzed by the past-and there is nothing I want but to make your life happy and to be useful to you. I have tried again and again to talk to you about more serious things.......bit we never met each other-I feel that true companionship is an impossibilty for us-because our thoughts will never meet.......I shall never forget yourgreat goodness, nor that you are still so fond of me-and I love too so very much, my darling husband, that is why it is so sad to feel that our life is nevertheless so incomplete and sometimes so difficult.  But you are never intentionally to blame for this-I never think that, never......"
It must have been a hard letter to write, but also very painful to receive - but there never seems to have been any impression that Alice had to soften her views or opinions to her husband, for fear that he would cut up rough at the very least.  One could say that he was very liberal and enlightened in his views towards his tormented wife, who in a later letter wrote that "I am not blind to my faults.  But I think I can say that we did not choose badly then and that we are a very happy couple."

Offline Ilana

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Re: Grand Duke Ludwig IV
« Reply #159 on: September 13, 2012, 10:09:59 AM »
In fact, it seems apparent that in a lot of ways, he may have been exactly the right choice for her... steadying and calm, etc.
So long and thanks for all the fish

Eric_Lowe

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Re: Grand Duke Ludwig IV
« Reply #160 on: September 13, 2012, 12:18:13 PM »
Maybe...But like Vicky, anyone man in Alice's life (except her brothers) had to be compared with her father (Prince Albert) and that is a tall order.

DssofBelem

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Re: Grand Duke Ludwig IV
« Reply #161 on: September 29, 2012, 02:57:36 PM »
Maybe the Prince of Orange wasn't the best of men, but if he had married Alice and fell in love with her, he would probably change, drink less and enjoy a family life with her. And I think that she would be more allowed to freethinking in Hague than in Darmstadt. And there would be no War stress or Diphtheria epidemic so she would live more.  Louis was a good man but not as intellectual as Alice was, and I read that Willem (the Prince of Orange) was intelligent but barely tapped (I don't have how to confirm this as I read in Wikipedia). He seems to be a needy (on this I am almost sure) person, the kind of people (like the intellectuals) Alice liked. And she would develop a good relationship with her mother-in-law Queen Sophie that always an intellectual person too. It's just my opinion but I think that, at the end, she would have been happier in Netherlands than in Hesse and by Rhine.

Offline CountessKate

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Re: Grand Duke Ludwig IV
« Reply #162 on: September 29, 2012, 05:14:18 PM »
It's worth remembering that Alice's elder sister made a marriage designed to give her political influence, and what happened?  All her liberal ambitions were frustrated by Bismark acting through her father-in-law.  Her mother-in-law was an intelligent woman with similar liberal views but embittered (like Queen Sophie) and their relationship instead of strengthening was actually weakened to the point of active dislike.  Vicky's letters to her mother often show her being in a difficult position between her warring parents-in-law, and Alice could very easily have been in just the same situation in the Hague as Vicky was in Berlin - politically frustrated and with very difficult parents-in-law.  Why would the King of the Netherlands allow his son more political influence just because he married a daughter of the Queen of Great Britain?  The King of Prussia didn't.  Why would the Queen of the Netherlands develop a good relationship with her daughter-in-law just because they both had intellectual leanings?  The Queen of Prussia didn't.  Bigger stages didn't necessarily mean greater scope for women at that time - they were dependent on their husbands and their new families and the situation in the Netherlands was even less promising than in Prussia for giving a woman scope to develop liberal feminist social programmes.  Alice might have found herself frustrated in different ways in the Netherlands - and become depressed, caught an otherwise trifling illness such as influenza, and died young just the same. 

Offline Ilana

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Re: Grand Duke Ludwig IV
« Reply #163 on: September 30, 2012, 10:40:16 AM »
Well said!!
So long and thanks for all the fish

Eric_Lowe

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Re: Grand Duke Ludwig IV
« Reply #164 on: September 30, 2012, 02:35:31 PM »
I don't think that would happen. At least there would not be a war that drained her energy, Holland was a much more stable situation that Germany. Of course, she would have "other problems" but I think physically her life would have been easier. I agree with BssofBelem, it is quite possible that Queen Sophie would have been a support for her than the retiring Princess Karl of Hesse. As both are intellectuals and with shared interests. As most of her health issues dated after the war (Austro-Prussian War), I think most probably would have lived a bit longer.