Author Topic: Grand Duke Ludwig IV  (Read 147764 times)

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Thomas_Hesse

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Re: Grand Duke Ludwig IV
« Reply #165 on: October 02, 2012, 06:01:51 AM »
Princess Karl supported Alice very much and it seems their relation was a very good one although their views could be quite different at times.
Princess Alice needed work like breathing - very much her father's daughter.

And was it not her saying that "life is meant for work and not for pleasure"?

Eric_Lowe

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Re: Grand Duke Ludwig IV
« Reply #166 on: October 02, 2012, 12:21:32 PM »
Yes. But they weren't kindred spirits. I think Queen Sophie might have given her more help.

Thomas_Hesse

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Re: Grand Duke Ludwig IV
« Reply #167 on: October 02, 2012, 12:48:11 PM »
Help for what?

Eric_Lowe

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Re: Grand Duke Ludwig IV
« Reply #168 on: October 03, 2012, 10:57:41 PM »
Alice's programs. Like Vicky, she did a lot of improvement in the country/duchy she married into.

Thomas_Hesse

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Re: Grand Duke Ludwig IV
« Reply #169 on: October 04, 2012, 08:36:15 AM »
But how can u know that she did not support Alice? I have not read the letters they exchanged - have u?

Eric_Lowe

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Re: Grand Duke Ludwig IV
« Reply #170 on: October 04, 2012, 09:47:22 AM »
Queen Sophie was a liberal and intellectual like Albert and Alice, maybe that is why the Prince Consort gave first choice to Holland. He most certainly did not think as much about Princess Karl of Hesse. The letters of Queen Sophie shows what kind of mother-in-law Alice could have had verses the help she got from Princess Karl. I still think Holland was the better choice than Darmstadt for Alice.

Thomas_Hesse

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Re: Grand Duke Ludwig IV
« Reply #171 on: October 04, 2012, 12:33:21 PM »
Princess Karl, Eric, has left probably the hugest collection of letters from and to great heads of her times in the Hessian Archives. They include the Humboldts, Bishop von Ketteler just to name three
Not knowing anything about her it is hard to judge like that.....

Eric_Lowe

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Re: Grand Duke Ludwig IV
« Reply #172 on: October 04, 2012, 01:10:27 PM »
True. You can only judge by how much assistance she gave Alice in her projects. That is well documented from Alice's letters to her mother.

Thomas_Hesse

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Re: Grand Duke Ludwig IV
« Reply #173 on: October 05, 2012, 01:07:44 PM »
Can u quote a number of specific lines for us please?

Eric_Lowe

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Re: Grand Duke Ludwig IV
« Reply #174 on: October 05, 2012, 02:02:02 PM »
I think most of the people here read the letters and can come to their own conclusions. I think in terms of situations, Holland trumps Hesse. Now and before. one can see how the Hague is still more important than Darmstadt.

Thomas_Hesse

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Re: Grand Duke Ludwig IV
« Reply #175 on: October 05, 2012, 03:04:27 PM »
This does not answer my questions and underlines the weakness of your point...

Robert_Hall

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Re: Grand Duke Ludwig IV
« Reply #176 on: October 05, 2012, 05:08:23 PM »
I agree, Thomas, as usual, a sweeping statement with no backup.  "Most of us"?

Eric_Lowe

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Re: Grand Duke Ludwig IV
« Reply #177 on: October 05, 2012, 08:36:17 PM »
If I get specific you will still think it is not. Facts is facts.

1. Holland is much richer and more important than Hesse in the 19th century and today.

2. More British Princesses marry into Holland than Hesse. The historical argument.

3. The Prince Consort considered Holland a more important alliance than Hesse. The factual argument.

4. Princess Alice's health started to weakened during the war with Prussia.

Robert_Hall

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Re: Grand Duke Ludwig IV
« Reply #178 on: October 05, 2012, 08:43:25 PM »
For a so-called British education, it is facts are facts.  Not "is"

Offline CountessKate

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Re: Grand Duke Ludwig IV
« Reply #179 on: October 06, 2012, 06:00:35 AM »
If I get specific you will still think it is not. Facts is facts.

1. Holland is much richer and more important than Hesse in the 19th century and today.

2. More British Princesses marry into Holland than Hesse. The historical argument.

3. The Prince Consort considered Holland a more important alliance than Hesse. The factual argument.

4. Princess Alice's health started to weakened during the war with Prussia.

They may be facts, but I'm having difficulty in seeing what they have to do with the question of whether Princess Alice would have been “happier” or even more content married to Prince William of the Netherlands.

1. Holland is much richer and more important than Hesse in the 19th century and today.

Princess Alice herself stated she would have been happy in a cottage if she loved and respected her husband.  While she may not have achieved that fully with Ludwig, she did love him at first and to a lesser extent later in their marriage.  But there is no evidence that either she or Prince William loved each other at all, so greater riches would not have contributed towards making her happier in her own view.  So how does Holland “trump” Hesse in making Alice happier?

2. More British Princesses marry into Holland than Hesse. The historical argument.

Were any of these princesses more or less happy for marrying Hessian or Dutch princes?  Would that have influenced Princess Alice in her choice?  Why would she have been happier and more contented because there were more princely alliances with Holland?  Moreover, in the unlikely event that such an argument would have made her happier, more British princesses married German princes than they did those from Holland, if you look at it in a less narrow way.

3. The Prince Consort considered Holland a more important alliance than Hesse. The factual argument.

Since the Prince Consort did not persuade Alice in any way to choose Prince William but certainly influenced her in her choice of Prince Ludwig, the “more important” alliance was not uppermost in his mind when the Hessian match was preferred.  Because it was his expressed wish, Queen Victoria allowed Alice to marry Prince Ludwig although in the extreme selfishness of her grief she hated parting with her daughter.

4. Princess Alice's health started to weakened during the war with Prussia.

Possibly.  But there is no evidence that this was primarily the cause of her eventual death which was of course diphtheria compounded by previous depressive illnesses arising not from the war with Prussia but from the more recent death of her son and the responsibilities of her position as consort to the new sovereign prince of Hesse-Darmstadt, and exhaustion from nursing her sick children.