Grand Duke Ludwig IV

[Eric_Lowe]

Ilana,WE are royal groupies and insiders. If any ordinary tourist bump into Darmstadt, they would not see much. Just check any Frommer or Fedor travel guide and look.

Also it is true, a lot of places you are not allowed in like Wolfgarten (only the garden is open certain times of the year), VMH's old house, The new palace was destroyed. I think Coburg has more places that are open to the public than Darmstadt.

[Thomas_Hesse]

Eric - Darmstadt being rather small has one of the largest operatic stages in Germany, more than 15 museums and exhibition halls, Mathildenhöhe as a worldwide known centre for modern Art and design (and right now on the pre-list for the Unesco World Heritage), is the first city that got granted the title "city of sciences" in Germany due to several important institutions such as Merck, Roehm (inventor of acrylic glass), the very first professorship for electrical engineering in the world, the ESOC etc
I think this is not too bad for a city with 145.000 inh

As far as I know Alice did chose her husband deliberately - and by that time she already knew Coburg which was even smaller than Darmstadt. Her Neues Palais was a very nice and large building as a recently published book on it proves

[Eric_Lowe]

Yes. but how much of that was there before Alice ? Darmstadt was a sleepy town when she got there. How many museums are there then ? The Dutch were rich and cosmopolitan (rich with trade with Asia & Africa) and stapled in democracy. I still think had the Dutch candidate been much better than he was, Albert would pretty much prefer Alice go there instead of Hesse.

[Thomas_Hesse]

If you say you were there and did not find much to appeal to you I think you can hardly have known Alice's Darmstadt?!

I am quite pleased that her parents did not marry her to a drunken womanizer - and knowing the troubles the Princess Royal had to face at the Berlin court it is easy to understand why her parents chose a smaller court for their 2nd daughter.

[Eric_Lowe]

I read enough to know how much of that appeal in Darmstadt was due to Alice and her son Ernst. Before her coming nothing ! That is why Noel in the bio stressed how much Alice has to face with her ideas of reform in that back water place.

Yet they count not foresee that the Prussians overrunning Hesse and narrowly putting it off the map in Germany like they did with Hanover. Alice's having to beg her mother for money for holidays...

I agree that the Dutch candidate is no good. But in location, Holland is a much better destination than Hesse.

[Hector]

Not to get into the whole The Hague versus Darmstadt stuff, but while people are making a case the Ludwig IV of Hesse-Darmstadt has been treated unfairly and unkindly by historians, I also wonder about poor Prince Willem, Prince of Orange. There really isn't much on him which pretty big gaps in his story. I know this topic isn't about him, but still wish there was more info (his own diaries and corresponce and other stuff like that).

If you say you were there and did not find much to appeal to you I think you can hardly have known Alice's Darmstadt?!

I am quite pleased that her parents did not marry her to a drunken womanizer - and knowing the troubles the Princess Royal had to face at the Berlin court it is easy to understand why her parents chose a smaller court for their 2nd daughter.

[Eric_Lowe]

Yes. I think Willem's story should be told. He lived with warring parents and did not have the relatively secure life that Ludwig did.

I still prefer the Hague to Darmstadt, but Ludwig was a better pick as a husband for Alice.

[Gabriella]

Yes. but how much of that was there before Alice ? Darmstadt was a sleepy town when she got there. How many museums are there then ? The Dutch were rich and cosmopolitan (rich with trade with Asia & Africa) and stapled in democracy. I still think had the Dutch candidate been much better than he was, Albert would pretty much prefer Alice go there instead of Hesse.

Eric look at your place of living. How much was there at Alice'S time?

[grandduchessella]

I think I understand what Eric's trying to say--he feels Darmstadt was more of a backwater than the Netherlands at the time Alice arrived there. She would've found more to challenge her culturally and intellectually. Instead, she set about (and her son Ernie would continue) to bring about social and cultural changes in Darmstadt that are still reflected there today.

I don't know about Darmstadt at the time of Alice's arrival so I won't make any judgments on his argument. However, I think this is his point.

[Eric_Lowe]

Thanks ! That is my point. Darmstadt was indeed backwater compared with both London or the Hague in terms of Science and social development.  That was Noel Gerald's case and I tend to agree with him. Furthermore, Hesse was further depleted after the Austro-Prussian War (Hesse fought on the side of Austria). The fact that Hesse was not taken out like Hannover was due to the displeasure it would invoke since the Tsarina was a Princess of Hesse & By Rhine. Princess Alice worked hard to improve the situation there. What I am sating that she would have an easier time both politically and financially had she gone to the Hague instead.

[Thomas_Hesse]

I am sorry if this sounds insulting - but how serious can I take a person trying to compare London or Den Haag with DARMSTADT?!
Your point is?
And "Noel Gerald" might be very pleased to hear how good Eric has read his work

[Eric_Lowe]

The point is that she could have a much easier time in the Hague than Darmstadt. Period ! It is like comparing New York with Billings.

And yes it is insulting but more so the comparison is easily seen it is not like I am comparing apples to eggs.

[Thomas_Hesse]

Eric, Princess Alice had a choice - it was not a marriage like the one of Archduchess Marie Louise and Napoleon. She was in love (the way people were in love in the 19th century) and I think well informed about the size of her new home and environment.
She knew that at first they would not have a palace on their own and that the annex of her parents in law's own house was indeed small.
There is also the very interesting memo that one of the Queen's doctors was comissioned to write before leaving for Germany - not only informing her on the case of pregnancy but also stating that the medical supply "abroad" was very different and that she did better to return to England in any case of REAL emergency.
So in a way it seems to me that the British had the idea of Germany being sort of uga-uga-land.....  and Alice knew that it was neither Berlin nor Munich she was about to live.

And again: how much did Prince Albert do to improve English habits and environments - think of the quarters he built for the working classes think of his cultural institutions and how he re-organized the Royal collection. He came from a very small Duchy and "backwater" State and I am sure that his marriage too (in his eyes at least) was certainly not always a success and mere joy

There are always things to do and to alter and to improve - be it London New York or Darmstadt. I think Alice was just right in her position

[Eric_Lowe]

Yes. I agree that Alice was in love with Ludwig and knew the risks. That did not make her task any easier.

Indeed, had Holland had produced a better prince, Alice would be persuaded to go since Albert thinks it would be a good choice for his daughter and maybe she could play a more active political role (a role which Albert foresee for Vicky too). If you look at the list of British Princesses marry into the Netherlands from Margaret of York to last Hanoverian princess. Alice would be in good company. But that fizzled. So she was married off to Darmstadt. Had her father knew that the Austro-Prussian War will pitch one daughter's country against another that would drain the duchy's resources and ultimately hurried her to an early grave, he might have second thoughts before giving his blessing.

Yes, but remember Albert came from a very "enlightened" background and very well educated. His two elder son-in-laws (both German) weren't up to the level of intelligence. That was the reason that both Alice & Vicky (both loved their husbands) felt that their spouses not up to par with their father.

I think Alice was in a good marriage but bad position.

[Thomas_Hesse]

Alice had a much better position that her sister in Berlin - because when she arrived in Darmstadt the Grand Duchess had just died and the Princess became in a way the first Lady from the very beginning. That way she was able to do much that Vicky had to fight for - being surrounded by a number of elder princesses and the Queen.

There was another English Princess to marry a Hesse: Elizabeth daughter of George III and therefore Alice's grand aunt became Landgravine of Hesse-Homburg.

The Austro-Prussian War lasted only for a couple of weeks and although Hesse had to pay a huge sum and suffered a lot the Grand Duchy remained independant - and it never strained the sisters relations. Quite the contrary was the case and Alice was quite pro-Prussian. When her son was born she asked Wilhelm I to be one of the godfathers.
that war did definitely not "hurry her to an early grave"

Alice had some intellectual input in Darmstadt - she formed close friendships with extraordinary artists and heads like Louise Büchner, Friedrich D. Strauss, Henriette Sontag, she met Brahms etc...
And as for the "enlightened background" of Prince Albert's: you know that his mother left her children when he was a toddler, that his father and brother were not "gentlemen" in the sence Albert that Albert was.... to say the least. I think on the contrary that he had to fight immensely for his education and compensated his longings for love and affection with learing.

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