Grand Duchess Olga Alexandrovna, discussion and pictures Part 2

[Arkhimago]

Preved napisal:  "Imperial Russia was an extremely hierarchic and stratified society"
                         and then he wrote: "Titles meant little in themselves in Imperial Russia"
                         So..make up your mind? Which is it? lol

The reason that Empress Marie " preferred a homosexual, gambling junior prince from a reigning family" was because this "mama's boy" was the only son of her best friend, Princess Eugenia Maximilianovna of Leuchtenberg, Duchess of Oldenbourg

And to quote the latter grand lady's Wikipedia entry verbatim: "Eugenia had a long-standing friendship with Empress Maria Feodorovna, and the two helped arrange the marriage of Eugenia's son to Marie's daughter, Grand Duchess Olga Alexandrovna."

It suited both their purposes in that it would keep Olga close to her mother (Marie already had quite enough grandchildren), and Peter close to Eugenie, hence the wedding gift of the Olgino property right next to Ramogne (although she no doubt DID hope for grand children, and especially an heir for the Oldenbourg ducal line!)

I always thought that the Dowager Empress did not as much dislike Kulikovsky as she was annoyed with Olga for messing up her "grand plan".

[historyfan]

I always thought that the Dowager Empress did not as much dislike Kulikovsky as she was annoyed with Olga for messing up her "grand plan".

I agree with you. The Dowager Empress did have kind things to say about Kulikovsky from time to time, such as when she wrote in a letter that Olga was "very happy" with him. Things like that stand out to me, because why mention it at all if she disliked the man for himself?

[Svetabel]

I always thought that the Dowager Empress did not as much dislike Kulikovsky as she was annoyed with Olga for messing up her "grand plan".

I agree with you. The Dowager Empress did have kind things to say about Kulikovsky from time to time, such as when she wrote in a letter that Olga was "very happy" with him. Things like that stand out to me, because why mention it at all if she disliked the man for himself?

The selfish Empress with her over-possessivness in relations with her children never hide the fact she didn't like Kulikovskiy. At least her diary is the best source on this. She nursed a grievance on Kulikosvskiy after Olga and her family didn't go with her to England in 1919, but some months before went their own way to the South of Russia. The Empress was sure that was Kulikovskiy idea and he wanted to separate mother and daughter! In her diary she complained on her son-in-law like a little girl who was not permitted to play with her favourite toy...She just didn't want to let Olga live her own adult life without selfish 'maman' by her side, the Empress was quite clear in her complaints: Kulikovskiy caused sorrow to her.

[Kalafrana]

Preved napisal:  "Imperial Russia was an extremely hierarchic and stratified society"
                         and then he wrote: "Titles meant little in themselves in Imperial Russia"
                         So..make up your mind? Which is it? lol


Is what is meant that if a person was a member of an old noble family it didn't really matter whether he had a title or not?

Arkhimago
I'm most interested in what you have to say about Olga's life in Canada. She was clearly an unpretentious person who preferred to live a modest livestyle, which is not at all the same thing as poverty.

Ann

[rosieposie]

My heart goes to Olga,  she was Queen Victoria's Beatrice.   Marie wanting to have Olga to herself sometimes there is family members like that in most families.   You can see how happy Olga was on finally getting with Nicolai in their wedding photos.  The photos of a young Olga looking depressed behind those eyes at her engagement with her first husband is on the deep end of the scale to the happy vibrant smiles she has of her wedding photos to Nicolai.

[Превед]

Preved napisal:  "Imperial Russia was an extremely hierarchic and stratified society"
                         and then he wrote: "Titles meant little in themselves in Imperial Russia"
                         So..make up your mind? Which is it? lol


Is what is meant that if a person was a member of an old noble family it didn't really matter whether he had a title or not?

Yes. What mattered was wealth (earlier measured in serfs' souls) and чин (service rank).

[Превед]

PS The Russian Empire was quite unique among European monarchies by not giving any section of the titled aristocracy an inherent place in the official order of precedence. 

[Janet Ashton]

I always thought that the Dowager Empress did not as much dislike Kulikovsky as she was annoyed with Olga for messing up her "grand plan".

I agree with you. The Dowager Empress did have kind things to say about Kulikovsky from time to time, such as when she wrote in a letter that Olga was "very happy" with him. Things like that stand out to me, because why mention it at all if she disliked the man for himself?

The selfish Empress with her over-possessivness in relations with her children never hide the fact she didn't like Kulikovskiy. At least her diary is the best source on this. She nursed a grievance on Kulikosvskiy after Olga and her family didn't go with her to England in 1919, but some months before went their own way to the South of Russia. The Empress was sure that was Kulikovskiy idea and he wanted to separate mother and daughter! In her diary she complained on her son-in-law like a little girl who was not permitted to play with her favourite toy...She just didn't want to let Olga live her own adult life without selfish 'maman' by her side, the Empress was quite clear in her complaints: Kulikovskiy caused sorrow to her.

Olga mentions the 1919 problems in the memoir that became "Twenty Five Chapters of My Life." It is otherwise extremely discreet about her family relationships - unlike the work she did with Vorres - but she DOES mention her mother's enormous paddy over the decision to stay in Russia. It obviously left painful scars.

[historyfan]

An interesting find! https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=633442830038317&set=a.124297104286228.15365.113360175379921&type=1&theater

[Eric_Lowe]

What surprised me was the lack of affection between Olga & Xenia, very different from their mother & Queen Alexandra. 

[Arkhimago]

Eric вообразил

"What surprised me was the lack of affection between Olga & Xenia, very different from their mother & Queen Alexandra."

How are you inferring this & where have you discovered a documented measure of the Grand Duchesses filial affections toward one another?
And even if that were to be true, all four parties are individuals.  What correlation is there between the two pairs, and thusly why would you assume that one pair would mimic the others level of devotion?

The two Empresses were barely three years apart in age, whereas Grand Duchess Olga was only twelve years old when her much elder sister was already married and starting a family. Despite that and the distances that separated them they were in close communication even speaking on the telephone with each periodically until shortly before their deaths. Did you forget that they were the only remaining siblings each other had left?
Even with privy knowledge of the frequency and volume of their interaction, I would never deign to presume ones personal regard for the other.

What surprises me is your lack of comprehension that affection is bound by neither time nor distance & remains as immutable as it is inscrutable.

(... I am quite certain that their must be a pithy русская выражение that sums my latter sentiment much better than this banal attempt at it ;-)

[edubs31]

How are you inferring this & where have you discovered a documented measure of the Grand Duchesses filial affections toward one another? And even if that were to be true, all four parties are individuals.  What correlation is there between the two pairs, and thusly why would you assume that one pair would mimic the others level of devotion?

Perhaps Eric is making an incorrect assumption. I would however like to take what he wrote and rephrase it as more of a question. You mention phone calls between the two but is there anything in their written correspondence, or from diary entries, the accounts of others, etc, that suggest they were particularly close and affectionate towards one another?

Their personalities always seemed different to me and they lived far apart in exile. The eight year difference in age was an important factor early in their lives, as you point out, but I'd have to wager far less so once Olga reached adulthood and married. Sandro died in 1933, meaning Xenia was a widow for the last 27-years of her life. One might think this would encourage her to reach out to her only sibling more often. How often, if ever, did the two see each other post-exile? I'm just asking some questions here...

[historyfan]

Age difference has a lot to do with the roles that siblings have in one another's lives. My mother is the oldest of three, whose sisters are 8 and 13 years younger. I am the oldest of three, whose sisters are 3 years younger. My mother's role in her sisters' lives was more like that of a mother than a sister, whereas my sisters and I behaved like sisters - fighting, sharing things, etc.

Does it matter in terms of the level of affection we all feel for one another? Not a bit. The way that affection is shown is different between anyone, and really can't be compared. I don't know about anyone else, but I'm not privy to letters between Olga and Xenia in their adult years. I can't tell at all what their feelings were for one another. I am curious about Xenia's opinion of Col Kulikovsky - did she share her mother's, or was she a little more objective?

[grandduchessella]

I would agree--age probably paid a large role in their relationship. So did their different personalities. Perhaps the sisters didn't talk/write/visit that much after exile but that doesn't necessary indicate a lack of affection--just a lack of common ground. I love my sisters dearly (and my eldest sister is 13 years older than I am) and we have a great time when we are together--but we have very few common interests, hobbies, etc...

[Kalafrana]

The two clearly didn't meet after Olga and family moved to Canada, but that doesn't really prove anything (before air travel was common people who lived far apart were unlikely to meet). Did they meet at all in England or Denmark between their mother's death and 1939, or did their respective children visit the other, or their cousins? A couple of Xenia's boys settled in America - did they visit their aunt in Canada (New York and Toronto are not that far apart in North American terms!)

Ann