Grand Duchess Olga Alexandrovna, discussion and pictures Part 2

[Eric_Lowe]

According to my research Olga did feel close to Ksenia at all. Ksenia was pretty and glamorous while Olga was homely with a retiring nature. In her biography by Ian Vorres, she did not much mention her sister with affection than she did with her brothers (reading between the lines). That relationship was further strained when Olga married morganetically. Ksenia & their mother both made Olga felt she had married below her position. Finally, the matter of the division of their mother's jewels, Olga felt Ksenia got more and she less.

[edubs31]

The two clearly didn't meet after Olga and family moved to Canada, but that doesn't really prove anything (before air travel was common people who lived far apart were unlikely to meet). Did they meet at all in England or Denmark between their mother's death and 1939, or did their respective children visit the other, or their cousins? A couple of Xenia's boys settled in America - did they visit their aunt in Canada (New York and Toronto are not that far apart in North American terms!)

Ann

No you're right it doesn't prove anything per se. But air travel could certainly have been an option later in their lives. Passenger jets became common and much safer by the late-1930s. Of course if neither woman was comfortable flying it would understandably have been more difficult to see one another with an ocean between them taking rail travel out of consideration.

Sometimes people use excuses like the fear of travel or advanced age to justify not being able to see one another. Sandro passing away in the early-30s, and leaving Xenia a widow, might ordinary have encouraged her to want to travel some if it meant connecting with relatives. Speaking from experience my aunt and mother have never been closer than they've been since my uncle passed away fifteen years ago. But I realize people are different case by case.

According to my research Olga did feel close to Ksenia at all. Ksenia was pretty and glamorous while Olga was homely with a retiring nature. In her biography by Ian Vorres, she did not much mention her sister with affection than she did with her brothers (reading between the lines). That relationship was further strained when Olga married morganetically. Ksenia & their mother both made Olga felt she had married below her position. Finally, the matter of the division of their mother's jewels, Olga felt Ksenia got more and she less.

I'm not nearly so researched in this area but I too have always gotten the sense that they were distant from one another...emotionally as well as geographically during exile. The question then is whether it had to do with issues of respect or simply, as has been mentioned on here, a case of two women not having much in common with one another. The age difference means their childhood experiences were certainly different. It's almost hard to imagine though either woman wanting to be left alone, especially after their mother and (in Xenia's case) Sandro died given the traumatic experiences their family had gone through.

[grandduchessella]

There was a photo of them in Denmark wearing black--I presume this was for the Dowager Empress. As to any further meetings in Denmark post-1928, I don't know.

Did their respective children see each other or have much of a relationship? That could provide some insight.

[Kalafrana]

'Passenger jets became common and much safer by the late-1930s.'

Not quite! Passenger JETS only became available in the 1950s, though passenger flying within Europe became fairly common for the well-off in the 1930s.

It would have been perfectly possible for Olga and Xenia to go between Britain and Denmark by train and ferry - not that lengthy a journey.

Ann

[edubs31]

'Passenger jets became common and much safer by the late-1930s.'

Not quite! Passenger JETS only became available in the 1950s, though passenger flying within Europe became fairly common for the well-off in the 1930s.

Fair enough. And what about the DC-3? Didn't that come into use in the late-1930s? Surely by the 40s and 50s there had to be acceptable flight options for the Grand Duchess's unless of course they were terrified of flying.

It would have been perfectly possible for Olga and Xenia to go between Britain and Denmark by train and ferry - not that lengthy a journey.

Indeed. And a boat ride across the Atlantic would have been an option as well. Certainly the sisters were familiar with ship travel being the daughters of the Tsar of the Russia. Hard to think of sea sickness as being an excuse for keeping them apart.

[Eric_Lowe]

I think they were too different to be close and the Olga's tomboy personality did not jelled with Ksenia who had experienced disappointment in her marriage. Olga adored her brothers and spent time with Nicky's children, but not with Ksenia's boys. As their geographical location became more pronounced in their later years, so was their affection. Another example is Thyra, who was much younger than Dagmar & Alexandra, but she was still kind and thoughtful to her sister's children (Olga recorded her Aunt in her articles) and visited Dagmar in Denmark after the death of her husband. No such affection found between Olga & Ksenia.

[Arkhimago]

Edubs is dead on.
Unlike her younger sister, who was thrilled even into her latest years to be raced down the QEW in Ian Vorres ragtop roadster at high speeds (with both coiffure and pearls askew!), GD Xenia, although not terrified by it, did not at all enjoy travelling by boat or air. And aside from naturally being a homebody, her less than robust health in her later years did somewhat inhibit this.
She was however one of the stronger proponents in attempting to convince Olga Alexandrovna to relocate to the UK following her husbands passing.

And to address Ann's query, As that Toronto to Chicago, and the latter to NYC are quite close, the cousins did and still do see each other, both while on business and for family events. A few even attended the same summer camps in northern Ontario together and the return trip from this peregrination usually culminated in a picnic or barbecue. It is no different than it would be for any other extended family.
Oddly enough nowadays it is more likely they encounter one another in Moscow or St. Petersburg in the course of various endeavours.

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I was excited to read Eric Lowes most recent missive!

And to quote Eric's declaration reposted here verbatim:  "According to my research Olga did feel close to Ksenia"

Congratulations Eric for finally doing some first-rate due diligence in your fact finding! You are completely correct in this.

 (Although admittedly, I AM somewhat baffled as to why you would firstly quite accurately state what you had discovered, and then go into great detail trying to disprove your own research??? ;-) It is really an interesting approach for you to take!
I cannot ascertain if you are in fact dastardly clever or are but muddying your waters to give the mere illusion of depth?

 You surely seem to have fascinating and arcane insight into the mindsets and metered degrees of filial affection of personae grand et al.

I must look back in this forum to discover if you have weighed in on the whole Anastasia issue as I am certain it would be a scintillating discourse.

[Kalafrana]

Arkhimago

Thank you for answering my question.

We should also bear in mind that neither Olga nor Xenia had much money. Xenia was accommodated by her British relations and periodically baled out by them. So not much in the way of resources for travelling.

Just to put in the perspective of a 'normal' family, my great-grandfather emigrated to Nothern Ontario in 1903 (reportedly to get away from his creditors!), accompanied by his second wife and two of his three children. My grandfather, who had earlier been packed off to sea, joined them for a time before heading off to British Columbia by himself. He came back here to join up in 1914, but everyone else stayed in Canada. His sister and her family visited their various relations in Britain in 1927, and one made another visit when stationed here during the war. Otherwise, one of my uncles met that side of the family a couple of times when his work took him to Canada, and III met the last survivor of my mother's first cousins when I was in Canada in 1993. This cousin did, however, keep up a Christmas correspondence with my mother, and presumably with my grandmother before she died. Over Christmas a cousin on the other side of the family was telling me that her brother had recently visited Canada and stayed with some relations whose parents had emigrated in the 1920s, and who had never been over here.

[edubs31]

Edubs is dead on.
Unlike her younger sister, who was thrilled even into her latest years to be raced down the QEW in Ian Vorres ragtop roadster at high speeds (with both coiffure and pearls askew!), GD Xenia, although not terrified by it, did not at all enjoy travelling by boat or air. And aside from naturally being a homebody, her less than robust health in her later years did somewhat inhibit this. She was however one of the stronger proponents in attempting to convince Olga Alexandrovna to relocate to the UK following her husbands passing.

Well this is conversation changing information. Spasibo Arkhimago! Let me borrow Ann's comment above and use it to pose another question then...

We should also bear in mind that neither Olga nor Xenia had much money. Xenia was accommodated by her British relations and periodically bailed out by them. So not much in the way of resources for travelling.

How about resources enough to fly her sister over to spend a little time with dear old Xenia? Surely a plane ticket or two couldn't have broken the bank, yes? Sounds more Olga might have been the one refusing such a request, but she certainly had her reasons. I'm not even sure it's fair to speculate on this as we're doing here. Olga Alexandrovna's personality is fairly unimpeachable in my opinion.

Just to put in the perspective of a 'normal' family, my great-grandfather emigrated to Nothern Ontario in 1903 (reportedly to get away from his creditors!), accompanied by his second wife and two of his three children. My grandfather, who had earlier been packed off to sea, joined them for a time before heading off to British Columbia by himself. He came back here to join up in 1914, but everyone else stayed in Canada. His sister and her family visited their various relations in Britain in 1927, and one made another visit when stationed here during the war. Otherwise, one of my uncles met that side of the family a couple of times when his work took him to Canada, and III met the last survivor of my mother's first cousins when I was in Canada in 1993. This cousin did, however, keep up a Christmas correspondence with my mother, and presumably with my grandmother before she died. Over Christmas a cousin on the other side of the family was telling me that her brother had recently visited Canada and stayed with some relations whose parents had emigrated in the 1920s, and who had never been over here.

Good perspective there Ann. What some people can convey about themselves in letters or over the phone often times cannot be replicated in person. With this in mind perhaps Olga and Xenia were quite close, but realized it wasn't physical closeness that mattered. Not at their advanced age at least.

[Vecchiolarry]

Hi,

My perspective on all this is:

1) Xenia was more a 'Grand Duchess' and Olga was happier as 'Mrs. Kuliakovsky'....
2) Xenia was her mother's daughter and Olga was her fathers....
3) Olga preferred to be in Denmark & then Canada (somewhat replicating Russia);  whereas Xenia enjoyed the royal life & relatives in Britain.

I would like to know if Xenia and Olga attended George VI's coronation?
And, did Xenia attend Elizabeth II's coronation?

Larry

[Arkhimago]

Eric further scribed:
 "I think they were too different to be close and the Olga's tomboy personality did not jelled with Ksenia who had experienced disappointment in her marriage."

Eric:
I believe that I may have prematurely praised your research skills.
Appended next is an excerpt from Grand Duchess Xenia Alexandrovna's Wikipedia entry:

  " Xenia and her siblings were raised mostly there with simplicity.As a child, Xenia was a tomboy and was very shy.
Xenia, like her brothers, received her education from private tutors. A special emphasis was laid on the study of foreign languages.Apart from her native Russian, Xenia studied English, French and German. Xenia learnt cookery, joinery and making puppets and their clothes for their theatre. She also enjoyed riding and fishing in the nearby river on the Gatchina estate, drawing, gymnastics, dancing and playing the piano."


Conversely, there is no such commensurate description of Grand Duchess Olga in her respective Wikipedia entry?
And even if there was a dis-interest in frippery and affairs of the court on her part, this hardly implies an automatic default to"tomboy"?

Further to your observation, (and even if it WAS accurate!)  I do not get how a "tomboyish nature" in ones youth, has any correlation at all, to an "experienced disappointment in her marriage"? How do you segue to that conclusion??
 Has your un-impeachable research perhaps uncovered if Grand Duchess Olga had herself "experienced disappointment in HER marriage"?? ;-I

And: "Finally, the matter of the division of their mother's jewels, Olga felt Ksenia got more and she less."

Despite all of the scribblings on this theme over the years, this is not factually at all correct.
It was Grand Duchess Olga's off-spring who felt this disenfranchisement and pursued it's veracity on their own accord after her passing.
HIH, at that time, did not take any great issue with it and was content to get the bulk of Hvidore and its contents instead.
And as that "bulk", unlike the jewels, has remained in the family, its true provenance and value is ever increasing.
Hence she did not get such a bad deal after all as it turns out. Conversely, in net value, and due to the times, as well as her own naivete &
sundry other reasons, GD Xenia did not fare  nearly as well in the disposition of the jewellery which she did receive.
In the vernacular of today some might infer she "got hosed".
Again that's a matter of opinion which lengthy tomes have already dissected in tedious detail.

[Arkhimago]

Edubs wrote:

"How about resources enough to fly her sister over to spend a little time with dear old Xenia? Surely a plane ticket or two couldn't have broken the bank, yes? Sounds more Olga might have been the one refusing such a request, but she certainly had her reasons. I'm not even sure it's fair to speculate on this as we're doing here. Olga Alexandrovna's personality is fairly unimpeachable in my opinion."

Edubs:

There would be no need for a ticket since there were private aircraft available to her both in Canada, and by non-Britannic cousins overseas.

Quite simply, as much as she herself would happily hop on an aeroplane, she would never go anywhere without her husband, and his physical condition in his later years made him a virtual invalid.  After his passing, she herself was not well enough to attempt such a long journey.

And that Edubs, was quite honestly, a completely fair and tangible query to pose, and as you see, has an equally real answer.

Conversely, personal degrees of endearment and the posthumous metrics thereof of is no more fair to speculate upon than it is germane nor relevant, and verges upon offensive whether applied to one of noble birth or otherwise.
Some posters appear to be completely oblivious of this line of decorum and when called to task upon their meretricious musings choose to ignore it and instead sally forth with even more странные мысли.

[grandduchessella]

A very interesting discussion to be sure. Please just remember that while gentle ribbing  is fine  (and pretty common in a congenial group such as ours)let's not veer into personal slights, however. And that somethings may come across differently online than perhaps intentioned. Thanks.

[Eric_Lowe]

I did read that Olga called Ksenia "monster" behind her back. It is also true that their affection never rose to the level of her mother Dagmar and her sisters (Alexandra & Thyra).  Ksenia maybe a tomboy in the schoolroom, but she blossomed into a beauty, unlike Olga who was "the ugly duckling". Ksenia was swept off her feet by Sandro while Olga had to escape through Peter of Oldenburg (her mother had long wanted her to be her "Toria" or "Benjamin" and was surprised by her announcement, contrary to reports of her arranging the match). There is much to seperate the sisters in looks and temperament. The fact that Olga was devoted to her nieces by her brother than Ksenia's children spoke volumes again. It was very different too as the Dowager Empress declared her favorite granddaughter was Irina, Ksenia's only daughter...

[historyfan]

Olga Alexandrovna's personality is fairly unimpeachable in my opinion.

Mine also.