Author Topic: Grand Duchess Olga Alexandrovna, discussion and pictures Part 2  (Read 384130 times)

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Eric_Lowe

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Re: Grand Duchess Olga Alexandrovna, discussion and pictures Part 2
« Reply #585 on: January 18, 2014, 02:44:07 PM »
I wonder if there are any letters of Olga in Windsor ? I think she did wrote to Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent after she visited her in Canada.

Offline grandduchessella

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Re: Grand Duchess Olga Alexandrovna, discussion and pictures Part 2
« Reply #586 on: January 18, 2014, 02:49:01 PM »
There was a book on her son--that may have some information or point you in other directions as well.

http://www.amazon.com/Tihon-Tsars-Nephew-Hans-Neerbek/dp/919739789X/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1390078073&sr=8-1-fkmr0&keywords=tihon+kulikovsky

They also serve who only stand and wait--John Milton
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Offline Arkhimago

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Re: Grand Duchess Olga Alexandrovna, discussion and pictures Part 2
« Reply #587 on: January 18, 2014, 02:56:00 PM »
Can YOU think of a single Russian or English word that can better express "schadenfreude" ?? ;-)

Zloradstvo? Smiley


Hmm... I have always thought of злорадство as being a bit too blunt and loud as in pointedly & directly laughing openly at someone's misfortune?
(As are in fact many things Russian. lol)

Whereas schadenfreude has much more subtle and....subversive overtones, as in one should feel guilt in mere ponderance of it and do it quietly.
It also seems that this most teutonic construct appears to be more often employed in the past tense?
It is almost is as if one can see or experience Zloradstvo in real time.....however, when it is recounted and analyzed in retrospect later...it would often become:"Ya, Ya....das war....schaaa-denfreude! (but do not repeat it for people will think you are not a nice person for even thinking that!)"  ::)



Offline Превед

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Re: Grand Duchess Olga Alexandrovna, discussion and pictures Part 2
« Reply #588 on: January 18, 2014, 03:09:20 PM »
Can YOU think of a single Russian or English word that can better express "schadenfreude" ?? ;-)

Zloradstvo? Smiley


Hmm... I have always thought of злорадство as being a bit too blunt and loud as in pointedly & directly laughing openly at someone's misfortune?
(As are in fact many things Russian. lol)

Whereas schadenfreude has much more subtle and....subversive overtones, as in one should feel guilt in mere ponderance of it and do it quietly.

I don't know if you speak German, but I assume you are referring to the word's emploi in English, where it probably has a more raffiné tone and meaning than in German, because it is only used by Anglophones of breeding and education, to whom the sentiments implied in the word are de mauvais ton. While in German there are popular proverbs about Schadenfreude.

D'ailleurs the word also exists as a calque from German in Olga Alexandrovna's mother's and own adopted language, Danish, as skadefryd. I wonder if she ever used the untranslatable Danish word hygge in communication with other descendants of Christian IX and Queen Louise. In their minds, the holidays at Fredensborg must have been the very essence of Danish hygge.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2014, 03:24:40 PM by Превед »
Берёзы севера мне милы,—
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: «Ивы и берёзы», 1843 / 1856)

historyfan

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Re: Grand Duchess Olga Alexandrovna, discussion and pictures Part 2
« Reply #589 on: January 18, 2014, 09:01:39 PM »
There was a book on her son--that may have some information or point you in other directions as well.

http://www.amazon.com/Tihon-Tsars-Nephew-Hans-Neerbek/dp/919739789X/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1390078073&sr=8-1-fkmr0&keywords=tihon+kulikovsky



Oh, right. I'd forgotten. Thank you.

I was afraid someone would say 25 Chapters and Last Grand Duchess were pretty much it for someone like me who does not read Russian! : P They're excellent books and I enjoy them both, but I was hoping there were more like them. Ah well.

ashdean

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Re: Grand Duchess Olga Alexandrovna, discussion and pictures Part 2
« Reply #590 on: January 21, 2014, 01:43:28 PM »



As for your reason in acquiring more reading material being to find any documentation of the "tidbits" you have been reading here, I can assure you that you will not find any. Since this is the first time many of them might appear in print, you may consider this forum an original source.



If we speak about the sources in English, well, documentation is poor I agree. But what about such sources as correspondence, in Russian? The source of my 'tidbits' on Olga and Xenia's life in 1919-1940 years are their letters to Princess Alexandra Obolenskaya (nee Countess Apraksina), long-time friend of Empress Maria Fedorovna and Xenia itself. There is a recent publication, in Russian, of this correspondence:

http://www.ozon.ru/context/detail/id/24737492/

and a pdf version

http://www.ozon.ru/context/detail/id/24705089/

the book is unigue, there are many letters of Xenia ( who was closer to Princess even more then the Empress and Olga) and not so much of Olga and MF.


I know Princess Obolenskaya was a childless widow when she left Russia in the Dowager Empresses suite. Although this is not the subject of this thread...as I cannot read Russian...what became of her? Did she remain with the Dowager like Countess Mengden then go to Paris? I would be grateful for information..

Offline grandduchessella

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Re: Grand Duchess Olga Alexandrovna, discussion and pictures Part 2
« Reply #591 on: January 21, 2014, 03:41:48 PM »
I only found bare bones:

Wladimir Pr Obolensky-Neledinsky-Meletzky (Moscow 31 Mar 1847-Yalta 7 Nov 1891); m.3 Feb 1880 Css Alexandra Alexandrovna Apraxine (St.Petersburg 23 Apr 1852-Paris 3 Jan 1943)

I didn't find any mention of her in the book Former People either. She *was* mentioned briefly in The Russian Court at Sea as she was picked up in the Crimea on the Marlborough and accompanied the Dowager Empress from there. (She was called Aprak by some.). After the Dowager Empress's death, it appears she ended up, like many a Russian exile, in Paris.
They also serve who only stand and wait--John Milton
Come visit on Pinterest--http://pinterest.com/lawrbk/

Offline Svetabel

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Re: Grand Duchess Olga Alexandrovna, discussion and pictures Part 2
« Reply #592 on: January 21, 2014, 11:36:03 PM »



As for your reason in acquiring more reading material being to find any documentation of the "tidbits" you have been reading here, I can assure you that you will not find any. Since this is the first time many of them might appear in print, you may consider this forum an original source.



If we speak about the sources in English, well, documentation is poor I agree. But what about such sources as correspondence, in Russian? The source of my 'tidbits' on Olga and Xenia's life in 1919-1940 years are their letters to Princess Alexandra Obolenskaya (nee Countess Apraksina), long-time friend of Empress Maria Fedorovna and Xenia itself. There is a recent publication, in Russian, of this correspondence:

http://www.ozon.ru/context/detail/id/24737492/

and a pdf version

http://www.ozon.ru/context/detail/id/24705089/

the book is unigue, there are many letters of Xenia ( who was closer to Princess even more then the Empress and Olga) and not so much of Olga and MF.


I know Princess Obolenskaya was a childless widow when she left Russia in the Dowager Empresses suite. Although this is not the subject of this thread...as I cannot read Russian...what became of her? Did she remain with the Dowager like Countess Mengden then go to Paris? I would be grateful for information..

She settled in Paris and remained there till her death in 1940. She tried to earn living by needle work, embroidery and sewing as well as selling her objects de arts (to Queen Mary of England via GDss Xenia).

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Grand Duchess Olga Alexandrovna, discussion and pictures Part 2
« Reply #593 on: January 22, 2014, 03:32:55 AM »
Does hygge convey something similar to gemutlich? Gemutlich is untranslatable but involves a state of unprelentious comfort, usually fairly small-scale.

Ann

ashdean

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Re: Grand Duchess Olga Alexandrovna, discussion and pictures Part 2
« Reply #594 on: January 22, 2014, 05:59:04 AM »
I only found bare bones:

Wladimir Pr Obolensky-Neledinsky-Meletzky (Moscow 31 Mar 1847-Yalta 7 Nov 1891); m.3 Feb 1880 Css Alexandra Alexandrovna Apraxine (St.Petersburg 23 Apr 1852-Paris 3 Jan 1943)

I didn't find any mention of her in the book Former People either. She *was* mentioned briefly in The Russian Court at Sea as she was picked up in the Crimea on the Marlborough and accompanied the Dowager Empress from there. (She was called Aprak by some.). After the Dowager Empress's death, it appears she ended up, like many a Russian exile, in Paris.
Thankyou...I had the same data myself.

ashdean

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Re: Grand Duchess Olga Alexandrovna, discussion and pictures Part 2
« Reply #595 on: January 22, 2014, 06:03:04 AM »



As for your reason in acquiring more reading material being to find any documentation of the "tidbits" you have been reading here, I can assure you that you will not find any. Since this is the first time many of them might appear in print, you may consider this forum an original source.



If we speak about the sources in English, well, documentation is poor I agree. But what about such sources as correspondence, in Russian? The source of my 'tidbits' on Olga and Xenia's life in 1919-1940 years are their letters to Princess Alexandra Obolenskaya (nee Countess Apraksina), long-time friend of Empress Maria Fedorovna and Xenia itself. There is a recent publication, in Russian, of this correspondence:

http://www.ozon.ru/context/detail/id/24737492/

and a pdf version

http://www.ozon.ru/context/detail/id/24705089/

the book is unigue, there are many letters of Xenia ( who was closer to Princess even more then the Empress and Olga) and not so much of Olga and MF.


I know Princess Obolenskaya was a childless widow when she left Russia in the Dowager Empresses suite. Although this is not the subject of this thread...as I cannot read Russian...what became of her? Did she remain with the Dowager like Countess Mengden then go to Paris? I would be grateful for information..

She settled in Paris and remained there till her death in 1940. She tried to earn living by needle work, embroidery and sewing as well as selling her objects de arts (to Queen Mary of England via GDss Xenia).
Thankyou.
It would be fascinating to know what that collector extraordinaire Queen Mary bought from her...but thats not relevant on this thread..

Offline Превед

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Re: Grand Duchess Olga Alexandrovna, discussion and pictures Part 2
« Reply #596 on: January 22, 2014, 10:28:00 AM »
Does hygge convey something similar to gemutlich? Gemutlich is untranslatable but involves a state of unprelentious comfort, usually fairly small-scale.

Yes, Danish hygge equals German Gemütlichkeit, but of course there are nuances. Danish hygge is rather low-key, not necessarily boisterous and involves a certain comfort, snugness, cozyness, being at ease with oneself and others, informality and can, on animated and festive occassions, involve a bit of the spirit or good cheer which the Irish call craic. In short, the exact oppositie to royal protocol and exactly the Biedermeyer atmosphere in which the Glücksborgers were reared in the Gule Palæ. When Hans Christian Andersen came to tell them fairytales, that was real Danish hygge! (And Kierkegaard pacing up and down the streets outside, representing the darker side of the Danish national character!)
« Last Edit: January 22, 2014, 10:31:45 AM by Превед »
Берёзы севера мне милы,—
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: «Ивы и берёзы», 1843 / 1856)

Offline Svetabel

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Re: Grand Duchess Olga Alexandrovna, discussion and pictures Part 2
« Reply #597 on: January 22, 2014, 11:00:29 AM »
Please let's back to topic as we all are going to different directions from the main  course  : )

Offline Arkhimago

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Re: Grand Duchess Olga Alexandrovna, discussion and pictures Part 2
« Reply #598 on: January 22, 2014, 11:51:49 AM »

Kalafrana queried:

Does hygge convey something similar to gemutlich? Gemutlich is untranslatable but involves a state of unpretentious comfort, usually fairly small-scale.

 In the intended tone of the term, I had always thought "уютный" to be a terrific and really exact russian iteration of "gemutlich".
Some of my German and Belgian acquaintances employ the English word "ambiance" to describe this, but not insomuch as a descriptor for interior decoration, but more to convey the more intangible mood of a gathering or event, and often to express their own feelings.

It is interesting that Превед describes this construct as being inherent to the Biedermeier ethos. I had only previously seen Biedermeier furniture displayed out of context in museums as individual pieces. and although quite handsome, found to be quite cold and imposing, somewhat a stripped down Empire style, and almost a precursor to Danish modern. It was only after viewing complete Biedermeier period rooms in Europe with allthe original décor extant did I begin to understand the intended mood and style of this movement and to see just how gemutlich it truly was.

And just to humour the moderator, many have postulated how awful it must have been for Grand Duchess Olga to live in such reduced circumstances in her later years. This could not have been farther from the truth. Do recall her fond recollections of her childhood growing up in the vast Gatchina Palace, but not in the lofty main floor state rooms end echoing galleries. Instead, the family suites were situated in the cozy low ceilinged upper floor rooms crammed with furniture, icons and bric a brac, basically the very embodiment of уютнo and exactly how she described her Cooksville house, as well as the rooms in Toronto where she spent her final days. This was the environment she felt most comfortable, secure and relaxed within.

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Re: Grand Duchess Olga Alexandrovna, discussion and pictures Part 2
« Reply #599 on: January 22, 2014, 12:55:55 PM »
My main recollection from the Voores book, and I read it as a teenager, was the walks in the park at Gatchina with her father and Mikhail, making camp fires and the like, all very unpretentious and 'ordinary', but quite obviously the sort of thing she liked best.

Ann