Grand Duchess Olga Alexandrovna, discussion and pictures Part 2

[Eric_Lowe]

I think Olga should be more tolerant of the situation (blood is thicker than water) and not jump into the band wagon where her brother was concerned. It was the only black spot in her relationship with a close family member was concerned. Maybe she was afraid that her association with Michael and his mistress would jeopardize her own chances of a marriage with Kulikosky if she was seen to be an tacit approval on the situation. That is the only reason I can think for Olga to abandon her own brother in his hour of need. It was the same kind of conflict she had with Anna Anderson, she was not too sure if it really wasn't her. I think that aspect of the "conflicted Olga" was never fully explored in any of her bios.

Well I think while the men misbehaved, it was the women who gets the punishment. It was Ernie who has boyfriends, but it was Ducky who gets the blame when she decided she could not live with a man who did not sexually desire her. 

No. I am all for family togetherness not divisions.

 

[Kalafrana]

Or could it be that Olga thought there was a distinct difference between her position and her brother's. she was desperate to marry the love of her life (after all, they met in 1903 and their relationship endured until Colonel Kulikovsky died in 1958), while Mikhail was making a fool of himself and damaging the monarchy over another of his passing fancies?  On the basis of his track record, there was nothing unreasonable in seeing Natalie as a passing fancy.

But once more we are not going to agree. I like Olga, and it's pretty obvious that you don't. Not beautiful.

Ann

[Eric_Lowe]

I like Olga too, but I have to say that she was being selfish in this particular case. Liking someone does not blind one to their faults. One author puts it as the plain Jane of the family, she was eager not to risk her future happiness in favor of solidarity with her brother. That relationship never really recovered.

[Kalafrana]

I am not blind to Olga's faults either, but her situation was distinctly different from Mikhail's.

Ann

[Eric_Lowe]

But she wasn't very sympathetic to her brother, she could disprove of his actions without washing her hands on him which she did. The lord said once judge and you will be judged. Olga was of course later judged by her misalliance (breaking the rule of marrying a commoner being the daughter of a Tsar). In this the Vladimir line was very careful not to break (both daughters of Ducky entered into "equal marriages" and so was Marie Vladimirorna). VMH also said there are rules that royals cannot break. In that case both Olga & Misha were guilty of that.

[Kalafrana]

Whether the Vladimir line's marriages were actually all equal is going to be debated ad infinitum.

But going back to Olga, when Mikhail was required to leave the country, what could she be expected to do? Follow him? In any case, her situation WAS different. Her romance did no more than cause wagging tongues in St Petersburg society, and had no effect on the succession. She was prepared to wait - and did wait - to marry Colonel Kulikovsky until Nicholas permitted it. Contrast Mikhail, who flagrantly defied their brother in order to marry his mistress, and at a time when Alexei was expected to die, meaning that Mikhail would become the immediate heir. Much more damaging to the monarchy.

Ann

[mcdnab]

My own view on this is that at the time of Michael's marriage she might well have thought his behaviour and his timing was inappropriate. My own view is that when commenting in the 1950s when it was more than apparent the relationship had lasted until the revolution and Michael's death whilst retaining her disapproval was acceptable to try and give the impression as she did that she had never even met Michael's wife was a downright lie given there is plenty of photographic evidence that she did and freqeuntly before the marriage.
Xenia seemed more forgiving and perhaps more understanding.

[Eric_Lowe]

I agree that in this case Ksenia seemed to be a better sister to Misha than Olga.

[Arkhimago]

Eric wrote: "Olga was of course later judged by her misalliance "
 As you are such a stickler for historic accuracy and precedent, might you kindly indicate where you have located any record of GD Olga being "judged" by anyone of her milieu, as well as the dates this was recorded? I am curious to know these "adjudicators" you have uncovered?

...then Mr. Lowe quoted the scriptures:  "The lord said once judge and you will be judged"  So...does this maxim apply to yourself also Eric? ;-)

 You could make the effort to respect both the source (which you listed as "the Lord") as well as readers here to, at the very least, quote the Bible correctly!  The specific verse you macerated above, taken verbatim from Luke 6:37 of my King James version reads:

"Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven"

(If perchance you were quoting from a speech by ex-US president George Bush, and using his version of that quotation, then do forgive my critique as well as my completely missing your subtle use of both whimsy and ironic intent!)

However if the preceding was not the case, then considering you were educated in both the USA, as well as a British crown colony, I would certainly expect your writing skills as well as your fact checking would be of a much higher calibre in that misquoting such a source does impugn your veracity.

What I really find offensive in your meanderings here is that your habitual errors are not at all out of ignorance as that I certainly do not at all believe you are not intelligent, but from a complete indifference ...to even bother to make the small effort required to google this minutiae! Further to this, you just do NOT seem to realize that, by academic definition, if you do not assert a fact correctly and accurately then it is NOT a fact!

This being said, I do look forward to your reading your creative response to my initial query on the sources of judgement.

And to the Forum Administrator about to delete this, my admittedly verbose, narrative, I have noted that when a topic on here spawns a secondary one, you often open a new category? As that I have discovered at least a dozen respondent rants such as mine, may I most respectfully suggest a new Discussion board titled "Rebuttals to postings by Eric Lowe"? They go back at least six years, and are very well written by a wide selection of learned Forum Members from across the globe as well as this pantheon...  

*****Edited to remove very personal attacks against a fellow member. I very, very rarely edit a post but feel it was more appropriate to do so here than simply remove it--as was almost being taunted to do. The Forum Administrator is VERY clear on posting attacks on fellow members. They will not be tolerated. Obviously, he, I and the fellow members who voluntarily take the time and effort to moderate the Forum can not be every place at all times. I know I work full time and raise children so this comes at least third on my list of responsibilities and that is not unique amongst the moderators. I don't think we deserve the snark either that was aimed in the edited post. If we cannot respond to every single post in every single thread in every single subforum, our apologies if something has slipped by. There are, however, reporting buttons that alert us to posts that members think we should attend to. I am also confused as to the 'opening new categories'  comment. I really don't know what that is referring to. But NO personal attacks will be allowed on the Forum PERIOD. We have lost too many members to those over the past few years. It is one thing to criticize a work or post of a fellow members and spirited (even very spirited) debate is welcome and encouraged but not to call them names, impugn their character or intelligence or mock them. Yes, it may be written very cleverly (and I have no doubt that other posts are cheering it on) but it doesn't make it less nasty or inappropriate and whether a member thinks we are being the thought police or not, it is our job to remove or edit those posts. *****

[Eric_Lowe]

Grand Duchess Olga knew what she was doing wasn't expected of her as the member of the reigning Romanov dynasty. Marrying someone below one's station was not tolerated. The case on Miche-Miche & Countess Torby does not need to be explained here again. I do not think it is right or wrong but that was such a norm at the time. Both Misha & Olga broke the law in that situation, Olga chose to lay low and eventually got her wish while Misha was banished (just like his Uncle Paul & cousin Kyril). The difference with Kyril was that Ducky was royal, so she was accepted and became a Grand Duchess, Paul & Misha's morganetic spouses do not. I like Olga generally, but found her failure to support her brother Misha disappointing. 

[KarinK]

Romanov Russia Today posted a quote from Olga about teatime with her nieces:

“There was always much hilarity when we returned home and had to change our boots and clothes before tea. It was almost a tradition that I had to be knocked off my feet when I stood on one leg…and my nieces would roar with laughter when I fell onto the floor. The worst came when we descended the narrow staircase…As soon as I started to walk down, someone would always put out the light so that it was impossible to see a thing in front of you. In the meantime, someone else would lie down on one of the steps and when I trod on her she would grab me by the ankle and tickle me or think of other tricks. There was much laughter and screaming as we all rolled down to the bottom of the stairs in a heap - knocking our heads against the banister on the way. As you fall lightly when you are young we always reached the bottom safely, or more or less without a scratch. This was how we appeared at the tea table every Saturday afternoon, happy, laughing and squabbling about all the dreadful things ‘the others’ had thought of. We had hearty appetites for the bread, butter, honey and milk which awaited us. It is true that it was called ‘afternoon tea’ but we all disliked tea.”
— 
Olga Alexandrovna remembering OTMA

I guess they were too busy having fun to take photos of these games! Or maybe something will turn up in an archive one day that shows a heap of smiling grand duchesses.

[Eric_Lowe]

Olga wasn't close to her other niece, Princess Irina Alexandrovna, Princess Yussopov.

[Arkhimago]

Eric Lowe wrote:

"Olga wasn't close to her other niece, Princess Irina Alexandrovna, Princess Yussopov. "

So what?
Is there some arcane court circular governing the fundamental precepts of avuncular affection, whose tenets have been abrogated?
Where is the reference to back up your declaration Eric? Or is it yet another unfounded conjecture by you, in the absence of anything contrary?

And if this postulation actually  is correct ,then what is your point in making it?
No doubt this is a preamble to another of your pronouncements of HIH's errant character flaws which you appear to be so fond of espousing.
And again, what is your purpose in doing this so repetitively and with such intent alacrity?

[Eric_Lowe]

Just making a point and not a flaw. MF openly declared Irina her favorite granddaughter despite have 4 (OTMA) from her eldest son Nicky. It maybe she did not have easy excess to them as she did with Irina. Olga on the other hand indicated her closeness with Nicky's girls, but did not mention much about Irina, her other niece even though she spent much time in the Crimea with her and her husband Felix Yussopv before being picked up by the cruiser Marlborough. It is sometimes easy to what is not spoken and not what did transpire.

[Kalafrana]

So if all this matters at all, then things balanced out. Olga A was closer to Nicholas's daughters, while Marie F preferred Irina. Xenia  didn't get on terribly well with Alexandra, and probably had her hands full anyway with seven children.

Family members vary in their degree of closeness to one another, partly through circumstances, partly though differences of temperament. This is normality, and you can hardly expect royalty to be an exception.

Ann