Maria or Anastasia?

[nena]

Anastasia is the girl which profile can be seen, so right in the center. I judge by remain's ages and heights, though it is pretty hard to find median unity. I mean, to find all parameters what fits one of the Little Pair.

[EmmyLee]

I've always wondered, though I don't know if anyone would have any idea, but who is the girl in profile right up by the window on the left of the screen?

[nena]

I don't know even it may be reflection by the mirror, or the next cabin. I see Tatiana Nicholaievna on the far left. Could it be servant. We are deeply in topic-off. Moderators should remove these posts to another thread. This one is strictly aimed on M/A question.

[Sarushka]

IMO, the female in profile between Tatiana and Anastasia is probably a reflection of Olga. The outline of the hat seems to match the one Olga wears in this photo, also taken on the Rus:

[blessOTMA]

IMO, the female in profile between Tatiana and Anastasia is probably a reflection of Olga. The outline of the hat seems to match the one Olga wears in this photo, also taken on the Rus:

Thank you. All this time I thought  in the photo of Tatiana and Anastasia that was a window to the deck.
But it's clearly a mirror since the ceiling fixture is reflected in it. I wonder if Gibbs had to sneak capturing
these photos? 

Sorry for being off topic! Now back to the  M/A question.

[nena]

The Missing Grand Duchess

Well, In the following paragraphs I will try to prove my beliefs and opinions about this endless and up to now, tiresome discussion. (This is sequel of from the topic 'How Tall', from 'Having Fun' section, I promised I will post to Keegan and Holly all I have on regarding this topic).
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Let's see what we have here.

1) What are (ours) parameters of exact defining those remains?

-Age , height and skulls' comparing to the photos, also skulls' properties that should match, again, on two things - on similarities with photos of Grand Duchesses and if possible, on the executioners' s statements.

2) What side we believe more, American or Russian, does it have something to do with our personal beliefs and
 persuasions?

Yes, certainly and categorically. It is so logical that Anastasia's admirers find that she is the missing one, and they find American methods to be more exact and preciser as well as for other parameters as height is. Same goes for Maria.
----
What should we do? To try to find out on some another methods, using our common sense. Something called 'wisdom'.

I will now try to circle all information we have and to examine each one of them.

Notification : We are based on the remains/skulls labeled as No5. and No.6.

* i will try with basic information about these remains:

Body No. 5:

The Americans concluded Body No. 5 was the youngest of the remains, yet extrapolated her height at 67.5 inches, or 5 foot 7½ inches. Maples said this was too tall to be Anastasia, therefore he attributed these remains to Maria Nicolaievna. The Russians however believed these remains were tall enough to be Tatiana.

                                                            Abramov    Mapple
5     F     ~20     166-171     Tatiana     Maria

No. 5 – 164.1cm to 176cm which is in average 170.05±5.7cm.

(Another source)

The Russian Commission that consisted of leading docimasy experts and anthropologists, determined the age of the girl whom skeleton No. 5 belonged, as being 18 to 22 years, and No. 6 – 16 to 20 years.

My opinion:

I see a contradiction. How can this body can be at same time both youngest and the tallest, unless it is Maria, but.... Height -- (since this body IS the the tallest of the all. Argument -- the lower limit of this body is 166 cm which says us that this Grand Duchess is quite taller than Nicholas). And plus, this is not Anastasia. We should decide is this body Tatiana or Maria. Difference between the lower and upper limit is 5 cm, and by that, it is more precise. IMO, this body is Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaievna.

Her skull:

In comparing to 1917 photos, we can see that Tatiana has bit smaller head than the other sisters, as this skull. And her skull is damaged, her right side of face, cheekbone. It is consequence of head - explosion. We know that Yurovsky indeed finished off her by firing into her head, and one guard said that it sounded like 'an explosion'. A reason more to me to believe that this body is Tatiana.  It can't be Maria, skull is too small for gorgeous and tall Maria. Age is approximately twenty, IMO skull matches her and the fact of being the tallest.

[nena]

Body No. 6:

According to the Americans Body No. 6's development was placed between Nos. 3 & 5. They labeled her as Tatiana Nicholaievna. The Russians however, labeled this body as Anastasia.

                                                   

         Abramov        Mapple
6     F     ~20     162-171     Anastasia     Tatiana

Another source:

No. 6 – 158.4cm to 165.2cm which is in average 161.8±3.4cm.
and No. 6 – 16 to 20 years.

Height determination. I calculated Anastasia's height to be approx. 155 cm in the end of 1917. It fits for her to be cca. 5 feet and 2 inches. This shows that by the time of her death, she was 5 f  and 3 inc., and not 5, 7 as Keegan thought I determined her. Average age is 18 yrs, which fits more Anastasia, since it can't be Tatiana and Maria is not in option for No. 6.

5 feet 3 inches is equal with 160, 02 cm , which is so close to the Russian result.

These results do not allow us to exactly determine the names of the murdered girls because, keeping in mind the above mentioned age limits, skeleton No. 5 could belong to both Maria and Tatiana and No. 6 – both Anastasia and Maria.

----------------------------------------

American exhumations and results :

According to Maples' book, Dead Men Do Tell Tales, he reports the following height estimations to work off of:

                                                                           No. 5 was extrapolated at just over 5 foot 7½ inches
                                                                           No. 6 was extrapolated at a little over 5 foot 5½ inches

Why these drastic differences? Again, body No. 5 remains to be tallest. My first conclusion is Tatiana. But No.6 is too tall for Anastasia. What if Tatiana is the missing one? And A is No.5 and M is No. 6?  Or otherwise?

[nena]

FOTR says detailed facial reconstructions on regarding these remains.

Let's see what we have, what solutions I found on one web:

If Marie is No. 5 and Tatiana is No. 6 ~ then the height for No. 6 is wrong.
If Tatiana is No. 5 and Maria is No. 6 ~ then the height for No. 6 is wrong.
If Tatiana is No. 5 and Anastasia is No. 6 ~ then the height for No. 6 is wrong.
If Anastasia is No. 5 and Tatiana is No. 6 ~ then both heights are wrong.
Is Maria is No. 5 and Anastasia is No. 6 ~ then the height for No. 6 is wrong.
If Anastasia is No. 5 and Maria is No. 6 ~ then both heights are wrong.

Solutions number 4 and 6 are not valid. (Then 'both heights are wrong'). It means, at least that Anastasia can't be No.5. We can see that height of body No.6 makes problem, it is leading us to think that those two heights are just similar, just to be Maria's and Tatiana's.

It is too obvious that Tatiana is among remains, both exhumation teams labeled her to be among them. If we choose that she is No.5, than Anastasia must be No.6. However, if she is No.6, than she can't be No5, but Maria. This is just matter of your personal willing to believe in. I would like to hear from your about what do you think which body remains to Grand Duchess Tatiana and why? Then we can , if you wish, discuss more.

Compare:


June of 1917, taken by P. Gilliard, as same as all 'shaved photos'.

About 2007 remains, Russians didn't allow any taking photos of those remains, although nothing much left, only 44 fragments. Remains of the girl are to be 17 - 19. Another source says that she was around 18. Too young to be Maria, on the one hand. I can't find the right information regarding the height of this body.    Not yet.  Also, I'd like to know some detailed tests and examinations about 1991 remains, in Russian, available in book' Taina Tsarskih Ostankov'. (The Mystery of Tsarist Remains).
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Well, doing this, I felt really odd, since I felt as if I am touching those remains and examining with them. To me, they are holy, they were canonized, and I don't have rights to 'put my nose there I don't have rights to'. However, whether Maria or Anastasia WAS the missing one, now they are finally together.And that is the main point, and not 'which' one is missing. Yet we haven't seen funeral, unfortunately. .

[blessOTMA]

Yet we haven't seen funeral, unfortunately. ....

Indeed. Those fragments need to be with the others. What is the hold up?

[Anastasia Spalko]

Yet we haven't seen funeral, unfortunately. ....

Indeed. Those fragments need to be with the others. What is the hold up?

Indeed. It's still a grand duchess and the tsarevitch.  They still should be buried with the others.

[Holly]

About 2007 remains, Russians didn't allow any taking photos of those remains, although nothing much left, only 44 fragments. Remains of the girl are to be 17 - 19. Another source says that she was around 18. Too young to be Maria, on the one hand. I can't find the right information regarding the height of this body.   Not yet.  Also, I'd like to know some detailed tests and examinations about 1991 remains, in Russian, available in book' Taina Tsarskih Ostankov'. (The Mystery of Tsarist Remains).

The female body was 5'2 and 17-18. A perfect match for Anastasia.

Neither body 5 nor 6 fit Anastasia with height OR by maturity. They fit the other girls and if you look at the skulls and the pictures of the children bald it's obvious who is who. Olga's wide forehead, Tatiana's skull much smaller than the others, Maria's much more prevalent dome to the right and the large eye sockets. The heights match, the age estimates make sense. I don't see how it isn't obvious.

[nena]

Okay, I respect your thoughts. In your opinion, No. is Tatiana and No. 6 is Maria. I again see contradictions, but it doesn't matter.

[Grandduchess Valeria]

Anastasia had a Hallux valgus...could this not be something to verify her? I thought such a "mutation" of a bone could be a good verification or wasn't there any bones of the feet anymore? (sorry, if my question is too silly, I am not a doctor and I just wonder about this fact..)

[Sarushka]

Anastasia had a Hallux valgus...could this not be something to verify her? I thought such a "mutation" of a bone could be a good verification or wasn't there any bones of the feet anymore? (sorry, if my question is too silly, I am not a doctor and I just wonder about this fact..)

I believe many of the smaller bones -- hands and feet, in particular -- are indeed missing.

[RomanovMartyrs]

My question (and maybe it is counter-productive) is: Why does it even matter?

Whether it's Maria or Anastasia...what does it actually change if it's one over the other?

Granted, I understand that scientifically and historically it'd be nice if the remains were identified. I do understand the value of accurate records.

But why does it matter so much so that there's an entire topic here dedicated to it, much less a topic with over 70 posts?!
What changes if it's one girl and not the other? The facts still remain that...

1) They were both murdered at the same time and place.
2) They were both disposed of in the woods.
3) They were both recovered and DNA tested to confirm they were Romanovs.

I just fail to see why it's such a big deal or why it matters.