Author Topic: Life Under the Tsars  (Read 38937 times)

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Offline RichC

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Re: Life Under the Tsars
« Reply #45 on: August 24, 2007, 12:14:15 AM »
One also needs to keep in mind that slavery DID exist in Russia up to the 18th century.  I'm not talking about serfdom here, but outright slavery.  The interesting thing about this is that Russians did something that few other societies have ever done (to my knowledge).  They enslaved their own people.

It's no accident, in my view, that the world's first totalitarian state took root in Russia.

Rich's comment intrigued me.  Currently the USA is often castigated for it's history of slavery, yet I know this wasn't an American invention.

When you say the Russians enslaved their own Rich, didn't some Africian cultures also do the same?  And I'm completely at a loss for details, is the idea of slavery foreign to Asian cultures?  I suspect it wasn't, but I'm not sure of the history.

T

Well, I said that the Russians did something that few other societies have done, not no other societies.  There's a very good book on the subject, Slavery in Russia, 1450-1725, by Richard Hellie, a professor of Russian history at the University of Chicago.

I hope this helps!

Offline Tsarfan

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Re: Life Under the Tsars
« Reply #46 on: August 24, 2007, 09:54:40 AM »
In Russia, moreover, it's arguable that slavery at least originated as much out of philanthropic motives as the desire to pin down mobile labor. I know this is a controversial theory (although I believe it is not that controversial), but it seems to me logical that if there was a surplus of labor, as there seems to have been in early medieval Russia, that noble households would take on the responsibility of maintaining an unnecessary labor force for the sole purpose of staving off greater social problems. You could see this same motivation even behind many of the wealthier noble households in the nineteenth and early twentieth century - Westerners often commented about how in Russia there were always six servants sitting around on the off chance of being available to open a door, whereas one person could have done the job just as well or better.

One of the reasons there was a surfeit of labor in Russia was that such a large portion of the population was bound to the land, especially in a country where, due to climate, agricultural and husbandry work consumed less of the year than in much of Europe.  And, being bound to the land, they were unable to engage in other activity that would give them the wherewithal to fuel the growth of what we today call a consumer economy.

In fact, much the history of tsarist Russia (whether the expansion of serfdom with Peter I and Catherine II, or the establishment of the Pales of Settlement under Catherine II and the May Laws under Alexander III) was built on policies that had as their purpose limiting  the abilities of large portions of the population to participate in economic activity that would expand wealth, and consequently expand the ability to purchase goods, and consequently create demand for labor to manufacture and distribute those goods.

Yes, highly-advanced nations suffer periodic bouts of high unemployment.  But that is a relative term, with high unemployment in the west often being defined as something above 6%.  True systemic, massive, and prolonged surpluses of labor are the hallmark of poor, underdeveloped countries, not developed or developing countries.  (For example, in parts of India, grass on estates is kept short by lines of people who crawl across lawns tearing grass by hand, because using a dozen such laborers is cheaper than buying a lawnmower.)

Granted, Europe had one advantage (though I wince to call it that) over Russia in this arena.  The plagues of the medieval period that swept over Europe but largely spared Muscovy -- killing as much as 70% of the English population -- vastly reduced the supply of labor and dislodged the hold serfdom had over many European feudal societies.  So perhaps Europe's modern economy was in a sense jump started by the horrors of plague more than by sound government economic policy.  (I'm never one to discount the role of pure chance in history.)

But the fact is that Russia kept itself saddled with a surplus labor supply by pursuing state policies that restricted the range of economic activity in which vast majorities of people could engage, thereby ultimately restricting demand for goods.

Basically, the argument that Russia created and maintained serfdom and other forms of servile status in order to deal with unemployment is an argument that Russia chose to keep itself economically under-developed and to keep wealth concentrated in as few hands as possible.  If they can get by with the argument that they did it out of the goodness of their hearts, more power to them.

Silja

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Re: Life Under the Tsars
« Reply #47 on: August 24, 2007, 04:37:06 PM »

I don't believe that Russians "long to feel the whip" - this is precisely the kind of condescending, insulting attitude evinced in a recent, "scholarly" book by an American self-proclaimed expert in Freudian psychoanalytic theory.



And yet there is a grain of truth in this as is suggested by a Russian joke, which I was once told by a Russian friend of mine. I don't remember the details. It's about Stalin choosing people from a crowd for execution by hanging. The victims don't at all protest but instead ask the dictator whether they are expected to bring their own nooses. 




But look at Spain. Who would have thought that the much-vilified Spain of Franco could have ever evolved into the modern, progressive, advanced EU state that it is? 



But Spain is a bit different from Russia. In Spain, since the 19th century, there has  been the "other, liberal" Spain alongside the reactionary, conservative one, and this other Spain has always had a considerable force. So to me it's not really so surprising that the country developed into a functioning democracy.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2007, 04:39:02 PM by Silja »

Silja

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Re: Life Under the Tsars
« Reply #48 on: August 24, 2007, 05:15:21 PM »


Yes, Germans do in some ways resemble Russians on this score [...] However, there were also enough strains of liberalism in German history, particularly centered on their cultural and literary history -- and even some liberal political strains in the non-Prussian states -- that formed the kernel from which a democracy could grow after World War II.  I grant, though, that the more proximate reason German democracy could take root was the massive infusion of U.S. capital into German economic recovery after the war.


Yes, I agree. And in the case of the Germans and the nazis you can in the same way come to the conclusion that the Germans yearned for a strong state which would give them back their dignity and social security after the traumas of the Weimar republic and that they traded  democracy, which hadn't worked anyway, against this social security. Hitler had clearly said he wanted to abolish democracy, so the Germans who voted for him must have had at least some idea of what they were going to get. Many historians call the Weimar republic a democracy without democrats. There certainly were some, but too many people were simply indifferent, as the Russians now are (towards democratic values). If the Russians are content with the present system, fair enough. They must find their own way, of course, but they are responsible for the system they now have.

Moreover, in Eastern Germany there is now a similar situation to that in Russia, if to a lesser degree, when it comes to democratic values. According to a poll from a few years ago only a minority of East Germans (don't recall the exact figures) consider democracy a good system. Like most Russians  many East Germans are disappointed with the liberal state because they are so badly off now. Like the Russians these don't care about politics any more. East Germany still lacks a well functioning civil society, mainly because under the totalitarian communist regime debate and discussion had never been called for of course.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2007, 05:40:11 PM by Silja »

Offline RichC

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Re: Life Under the Tsars
« Reply #49 on: August 25, 2007, 12:24:34 PM »
Currently the USA is often castigated for it's history of slavery, yet I know this wasn't an American invention.


T

I'm not sure if you mean the press, or the foreign press, or who, when you say the USA is often castigated for it's history of slavery.  But if it is being singled out, aside from other cultures or countries that practiced it, I would guess that is because the very idea of slavery is the antithesis of everything our Founding Fathers supposedly stood for.  According to the them, every man has an inalienable right to the pursuit of Life, Liberty and Happiness.  So, that legalized slavery existed in the United States for the first 90 years of it's existence looks pretty bad.

Despite all this, I do not see the U.S. particularly singled out for its history of slavery -- but perhaps I'm not paying attention.  I always thought Britain came in for much more criticism (internationally) for its own history of legalized slavery, which wasn't abolished until 1834 -- just three years before the accession of Queen Victoria, and 30 years before it was abolished in the United States.

Elisabeth

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Re: Life Under the Tsars
« Reply #50 on: August 26, 2007, 11:10:51 AM »
Currently the USA is often castigated for it's history of slavery, yet I know this wasn't an American invention.


T

I'm not sure if you mean the press, or the foreign press, or who, when you say the USA is often castigated for it's history of slavery.  But if it is being singled out, aside from other cultures or countries that practiced it, I would guess that is because the very idea of slavery is the antithesis of everything our Founding Fathers supposedly stood for.  According to the them, every man has an inalienable right to the pursuit of Life, Liberty and Happiness.  So, that legalized slavery existed in the United States for the first 90 years of it's existence looks pretty bad.

Despite all this, I do not see the U.S. particularly singled out for its history of slavery -- but perhaps I'm not paying attention.  I always thought Britain came in for much more criticism (internationally) for its own history of legalized slavery, which wasn't abolished until 1834 -- just three years before the accession of Queen Victoria, and 30 years before it was abolished in the United States.

Well, at least it was 30 years before the United States, that's the entire youth of an African slave born in 1804. Nothing to sneeze at.

The current scoop on slavery is that many African nations continue to indulge in it. At least, it's been the subject of more than one CNN profile, in my memory. Particularly horrible is the enslavement of African girl children in domestic servitude (with all its predictable woes of sexual exploitation), but far, far worse yet, is the enslavement of African boys into paramilitary groups, where they are taught to kill their so-called opponents, on a purely arbitrary basis, literally without rhyme or reason, except in the minds of their pathological leaders.

Offline Terence

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Re: Life Under the Tsars
« Reply #51 on: August 26, 2007, 04:18:51 PM »
Rich, actually I was referring to various comments I've heard made in the US press over the past few years.  Whether by academics, politicians or others, it is often phrased so that one would think America was alone in ever having slavery.  As Elisabeth has rightly pointed out, this crime against humanity still exists to this day, which is completely ignored by those castigating the US.

To keep this somewhat on subject, thank you for the reference to the history of Russian slavery.  I'm going to check that out w/ inter-library loan.

T

Alixz

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Re: Life Under the Tsars
« Reply #52 on: September 05, 2007, 02:15:08 AM »
Currently the USA is often castigated for it's history of slavery, yet I know this wasn't an American invention.


T

I'm not sure if you mean the press, or the foreign press, or who, when you say the USA is often castigated for it's history of slavery.  But if it is being singled out, aside from other cultures or countries that practiced it, I would guess that is because the very idea of slavery is the antithesis of everything our Founding Fathers supposedly stood for.  According to the them, every man has an inalienable right to the pursuit of Life, Liberty and Happiness.  So, that legalized slavery existed in the United States for the first 90 years of it's existence looks pretty bad.

Despite all this, I do not see the U.S. particularly singled out for its history of slavery -- but perhaps I'm not paying attention.  I always thought Britain came in for much more criticism (internationally) for its own history of legalized slavery, which wasn't abolished until 1834 -- just three years before the accession of Queen Victoria, and 30 years before it was abolished in the United States.
Currently the USA is often castigated for it's history of slavery, yet I know this wasn't an American invention.


T

I'm not sure if you mean the press, or the foreign press, or who, when you say the USA is often castigated for it's history of slavery.  But if it is being singled out, aside from other cultures or countries that practiced it, I would guess that is because the very idea of slavery is the antithesis of everything our Founding Fathers supposedly stood for.  According to the them, every man has an inalienable right to the pursuit of Life, Liberty and Happiness.  So, that legalized slavery existed in the United States for the first 90 years of it's existence looks pretty bad.

Despite all this, I do not see the U.S. particularly singled out for its history of slavery -- but perhaps I'm not paying attention.  I always thought Britain came in for much more criticism (internationally) for its own history of legalized slavery, which wasn't abolished until 1834 -- just three years before the accession of Queen Victoria, and 30 years before it was abolished in the United States.


What about the enslavement in India by the British?  QV was very much in attendance at that time as she became Empress of India.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Life Under the Tsars
« Reply #53 on: September 10, 2007, 10:34:35 AM »
I thought this articles PLAYING POLITICS WITH THE ROMANOVS   By YURI ZARAKHOVICH  Tue Aug 28, 12:50 AM ET in the TIMES  was interesting:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20070828/wl_time/playingpoliticswiththeromanovs

>>... the symbol of the martyred and sanctified family may still serve a political purpose again - and again ironically. "The Empire" is the buzzword of President Vladimir Putin's ideology. Using the might of the Red Soviet Empire combined with the record of the White Pre-revolutionary Empire, he has created the image of the powerful "Energy Empire," looming over nations with less resources. He has long reclaimed Russian Nationalists' key slogans and battle cries for his own purposes. <<

AGRBear
« Last Edit: September 10, 2007, 10:52:19 AM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Rachel

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Re: Life Under the Tsars
« Reply #54 on: October 31, 2007, 10:05:18 PM »
Quote
Granted, Europe had one advantage (though I wince to call it that) over Russia in this arena.  The plagues of the medieval period that swept over Europe but largely spared Muscovy -- killing as much as 70% of the English population -- vastly reduced the supply of labor and dislodged the hold serfdom had over many European feudal societies.  So perhaps Europe's modern economy was in a sense jump started by the horrors of plague more than by sound government economic policy.  (I'm never one to discount the role of pure chance in history.)

This is actually a leading theory among Plague and European scholars. It holds a lot of merit. The European economy was completely remade by the first Plague outbreak and famines just about disappeared for a while. For the first time, people outside of nobility began to make money. (in addition to Russia, I'm also fascinated by the Plague, lol) There's an excellent 2 hour History Channel documentary that goes into great detail about the economic situation in Europe, pre-Plague, during the Plague and post-Plague.

I'm a historical novelist pursuing publication, and naturally my intense interest in all things Russian takes center stage. My current novel in progress is a family legacy type story that's a trilogy and spans 1894 to 1921 in Russia, then follows the family to Philadelphia. The younger son often gets involved in arguments where he's comparing the evils of the tsar to the evils of the Bolsheviks, and defending his decision to fight with the Whites. Writing those arguments is giving me the unique opportunity to really examine both sides of the Revolution. Which is something I enjoy doing anyway.

Offline Romanov_fan

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Re: Life Under the Tsars
« Reply #55 on: November 01, 2007, 03:17:44 AM »
I think your novel sounds very interesting, particularly the part you mentioned! I very much enjoyed this thread, even if I can't think of a contribution to make myself.

dmitri

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Re: Life Under the Tsars
« Reply #56 on: November 01, 2007, 06:27:04 PM »
Enjoy writing your novel Rachel. I'm not sure how your character ends up in the United States. Just thought you might not realise a lot of Russians ended up in France. Perhaps your character gets to USA only after reaching France.

Rachel

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Re: Life Under the Tsars
« Reply #57 on: November 02, 2007, 04:28:06 PM »
Business connections take them to America via London. The eldest son ends up in the US via Paris.

dmitri

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Re: Life Under the Tsars
« Reply #58 on: November 02, 2007, 05:33:54 PM »
I see. Sounds like a good piece of faction. Involving real historical identities with your fictional characters make a story very enjoyable and possibly plausible. I hope it all turns out very well for you.