Did Sophie Buxhoeveden Betray the IF?

[Annie]

Annie,

1. Alexandra never said anything at all in her diaries about it. We know that for certain.
2. (and almost more importantly) NOBODY ELSE ever said anything about it at the time either.  The only time it got mentioned was later by Soloviev and nobody else.

I just don't understand why anyone would hang their hat on Soloviev's assertions without doing much more research.  I just have to translate this one section of Sokolov's "Enquete" to illustrate my point (pg. 126. Translation is mine and copyright 2007)

"In December 1919, the aforementioned (Boris Nicholaievich) Soloviev was arrested in Vladivostok by the Chief of Counter Espionage.  He was under suspicion due to his conduct and his relationships with the socialist circles who were preparing the downfall of Admiral Kolchak.  Since several officers, then in Vladivostok, had known him in Tiumen, there had been some doubts about his role with respect to the Imperial Family.  Thus I had him brought to Tchita where I was then located, along with the documents containing the transcripts of his interrogations and the depositions of my officers, as well as the items found on him.   All of this permitted me to begin an action at law against him under article 108 of the Criminal code, as his being a Bolshevik agent. Those documents proved that his wife Matrona, daughter of Rasputin, had been his accomplice.  I had them both locked up.  I myself interrogated them both between December 26, 1919 and January 1, 1920.  On the 28th, I succeded in finding their diary.  It was because of that that the Inquest was able to establish their role (as Bolshevik agents). "

Thanks, so the diary is ruled out for sure. Well since there doesn't seem to be any other mention of it, and we know Soloviev was a liar, there really doesn't seem to be a story here. If it had been true I'm sure everyone would have mentioned it in their memoirs. I don't believe it.

As for Soloviev and Matrona, they were arrested and locked up, how did they get away to England? Did she stay with him after she found out what a rotten guy he was, or was she really in on it too?

[helenazar]

As for Soloviev and Matrona, they were arrested and locked up for this, how did they get away to England? Did she stay with him after she found out what a rotten guy he was, or was she really in on it too?

I am not sure that Maria Rasputin was arrested and locked up, was she? Not sure if she was even aware of her husband's schemes at the time... From what I can remember from her memoirs, they later got divorced, and Maria went to California and became a lion (tiger?) tamer... In her memoirs, I think that she wrote that she found out that Soloviev married her in order to gain credibility with the IF and the monarchists with the Rasputin name. I read these memoirs a while ago, so can't remember the details... I remember that she talked about how badly he treated her.

P.S. Apparently they did have one child....

[helenazar]

So to summarize and to answer the original question: there is no credible evidence that Sophie Buxhoeveden betrayed the IF by embezzling a large sum of money intended for their rescue, as asserted in The Fate of the Romanovs.

[Forum Admin]

So to summarize and to answer the original question: there is no credible evidence that Sophie Buxhoeveden betrayed the IF by embezzling a large sum of money intended for their rescue, as asserted in The Fate of the Romanovs.

Full Stop. (for our UK users)

- 30 -  (lets see who's smart enough to know what that is)

"Th-th-th-th-That's All Folks!!"

[Alixz]

FA - I know what '30" means, we all should as we read enough. (Although isn't that the way to end a story without saying "the end" which is considered bad luck?) (Oh, no I said it.  Its like an actor mentioning "Macbeth" inside a theater and then having to go out side and run around the theater three times and spit over his shoulder?)

However, I wanted to thank Annie, for correcting my Gilliard with the proper Gibbes.  Somehow yesterday, I just couldn't think of his name.

Forgive me FA. I will now contribute my own   


30

[Forum Admin]

Close, but not quite.

-30- with the dashes, was the way a journalist would communicate "end of story" when sending his story via telegraph. 

[Alixz]

FA, 

Now that I think about it, I was confusing two stories that I had read.  In one it is by a journalist who ends the book with -30- and in the other it is by a person who doesn't want to write the last .....   (for fear of bad luck).


Don't remember much about either book or the contents, but I always remembered two two endings.  Sorry to confuse them.

Again and this time ....

[Annie]

As for Soloviev and Matrona, they were arrested and locked up for this, how did they get away to England? Did she stay with him after she found out what a rotten guy he was, or was she really in on it too?

I am not sure that Maria Rasputin was arrested and locked up, was she? Not sure if she was even aware of her husband's schemes at the time... From what I can remember from her memoirs, they later got divorced, and Maria went to California and became a lion (tiger?) tamer... In her memoirs, I think that she wrote that she found out that Soloviev married her in order to gain credibility with the IF and the monarchists with the Rasputin name. I read these memoirs a while ago, so can't remember the details... I remember that she talked about how badly he treated her.

P.S. Apparently they did have one child....

I never heard that or saw it in her memoirs, either, I got it from this post by FA:

this one section of Sokolov's "Enquete" to illustrate my point (pg. 126. Translation is mine and copyright 2007)

"In December 1919, the aforementioned (Boris Nicholaievich) Soloviev was arrested in Vladivostok by the Chief of Counter Espionage.  He was under suspicion due to his conduct and his relationships with the socialist circles who were preparing the downfall of Admiral Kolchak.  Since several officers, then in Vladivostok, had known him in Tiumen, there had been some doubts about his role with respect to the Imperial Family.  Thus I had him brought to Tchita where I was then located, along with the documents containing the transcripts of his interrogations and the depositions of my officers, as well as the items found on him.   All of this permitted me to begin an action at law against him under article 108 of the Criminal code, as his being a Bolshevik agent. Those documents proved that his wife Matrona, daughter of Rasputin, had been his accomplice.  I had them both locked up.  I myself interrogated them both between December 26, 1919 and January 1, 1920.  On the 28th, I succeded in finding their diary.  It was because of that that the Inquest was able to establish their role (as Bolshevik agents). "

I used to have her book but it has disappeared. I question some of what she said in it, she seemed to be one for telling rumors for truth and being sensationalistic.

So, sleuths, is there no evidence Maria/Matrona ever did any time? Did her husband stay locked up when she fled to England then the US?

edit no wait, don't answer here I don't want to derail the thread. I'm going to start a new thread and we can see if we can  convict or absolve Matrona as you have Sophie!

[Annie]

So to summarize and to answer the original question: there is no credible evidence that Sophie Buxhoeveden betrayed the IF by embezzling a large sum of money intended for their rescue, as asserted in The Fate of the Romanovs.

The investigative journalists have researched thoroughly and come to a conclusion! Thanks for getting to the bottom of this and proving Sophie is not guilty. Case dismissed!

It's great when we can find out answers here on the site by digging around for the right info. This is also how we solved the "Grossmann" case and closed it. If you can do this posting on a message board, there's no reason everyone doing research, even for a book, shouldn't do the same, for the sake of accuracy in history. No half truth or assumption should ever be passed off as fact in nonfiction. We must be careful!

[Forum Admin]

The only evidence I can find is that Boris and Maria left Russia together.  Somehow they were both released from jail. More is unclear.

[Annie]

Okay, thanks, if that's all you can delete my "was Maria R. a Bolshie agent" thread or move these posts over there. I didn't want to go off topic so I started a new one.

[helenazar]

I never heard that or saw it in her memoirs, either, I got it from this post by FA:

this one section of Sokolov's "Enquete" to illustrate my point (pg. 126. Translation is mine and copyright 2007)

"In December 1919, the aforementioned (Boris Nicholaievich) Soloviev was arrested in Vladivostok by the Chief of Counter Espionage.  He was under suspicion due to his conduct and his relationships with the socialist circles who were preparing the downfall of Admiral Kolchak.  Since several officers, then in Vladivostok, had known him in Tiumen, there had been some doubts about his role with respect to the Imperial Family.  Thus I had him brought to Tchita where I was then located, along with the documents containing the transcripts of his interrogations and the depositions of my officers, as well as the items found on him.   All of this permitted me to begin an action at law against him under article 108 of the Criminal code, as his being a Bolshevik agent. Those documents proved that his wife Matrona, daughter of Rasputin, had been his accomplice.  I had them both locked up.  I myself interrogated them both between December 26, 1919 and January 1, 1920.  On the 28th, I succeded in finding their diary.  It was because of that that the Inquest was able to establish their role (as Bolshevik agents). "

Ok, I think I missed this one, thanks. As far as I can remember, Maria was not implicated in anything like this, and she was later on good terms with the monarchists abroad (and this is not normally mentioned anywhere about her), but I guess anything is possible. She wasn't exactly a paragon of reliability either...

[helenazar]

BTW, I now have FOTR in front of me (how efficient our interlibrary loan system is  and was able to confirm the quotes that were posted here for those of us who couldn't look at them before. Looking at it first hand convinced me more that our inquest was correct.

[Forum Admin]

Helen,
"inquest" sounds a bit harsh, don't you think? I prefer to think of this as a scholarly exercise or review of a work.

[helenazar]

"inquest" sounds a bit harsh, don't you think? I prefer to think of this as a scholarly exercise or review of a work.

Yes, you're right, couldn't think of a better word.