Author Topic: Did Sophie Buxhoeveden Betray the IF?  (Read 46999 times)

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Re: Her diary- a question
« Reply #15 on: August 06, 2007, 03:47:54 PM »
I really don't know where the accusations actualy came from. I don't have a copy of FOTR. I know Volkov, who was THERE said nothing on the subect, nor do any of the other first hand sources I've read. The only other possible "association" may have been that Bux was innocently trying to help arrange money for the IFs rescue with Rasputin's daughter and her con artist husband in Tobolsk.  Certainly we know she was not part of that scandal intentionally if at all.


helenazar

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Re: Her diary- a question
« Reply #16 on: August 06, 2007, 04:06:02 PM »
I really don't know where the accusations actualy came from.

The only place I have ever read these accusations were in FOTR... I don't own a copy either so can't check what the alleged source was and of course I can't remember what it said since I read it a few years ago.

Annie

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Re: Her diary- a question
« Reply #17 on: August 06, 2007, 04:51:39 PM »
Sophie was accused of betraying the family by taking money from them and later informing their guards that the Romanov children had sewed jewels into their clothing.

This is not true and is based on something Anna Anderson made up to discredit Buxhoevedon after she, as you say, denied her as "Tataina." As Eddie and Dmitri said, we have to be careful about info from Anderson supporters. Some Anderson supporters like to try to say it's true, because that way it would be a piece of 'exclusive' 'proof' that she really was Anastasia! ::) But there really is no proof, only rumors.

Some Anderson supporters have suggested that Sophie was spared the firing squad and given safe passage out of the country for her 'betrayal.' But in Sophie's book "Left Behind", she tells that the reason she was not imprisoned with the family is because the Bolsheviks took her for a Swede because of her name, and let her go with the other foreign nationals (they apparently didn't want to hold foreigners in fear of angering their governments and having them send troops, they were having a hard enough time with the whites) Even though they were told to leave, the group (including Gibbes and Gilliard) hung around Ekaterinburg trying desperately to find a way to see if they could free the family, or at least get word to them. It was during this time that they witnessed Nagorny being taken to his execution, and they praised him for not giving them away, even with a glance when he saw them, brave and true until the end.

Then she describes how she, Gibbes, Gilliard and a few others took over a year to fight their way across civil war torn Siberia. They were frequently in fear for their lives, so ho one was protecting them. The only way she got out of Russia was when the group made it to Omsk, it was under British control, and a British officer helped them them arrange safe passage out of the country. She was not helped by Bolsheviks!

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I think maybe she took the money from the family, who knows?

I heard another story on that, I forget where now. Anna Vyrubova and a group of IF supporters raised a large sum of money for the rescue of the IF, and sent it to Siberia via Maria Rasputin and her husband. There are rumors they were the ones who betrayed the family, and the husband almost certainly betrayed people on the IF's side, thinking they could trust him, to the Bolsheviks. This may be a rumor, too, but it was true that somehow the 170,000 rubles they were trusted with had dwindled down to only 33. The story goes that Buxhoevedon, who had not traveled to Tobolsk with the family but came later, got some money from them, but it wasn't nearly the amount it was supposed to have been, and she got the blame from some for stealing it, when actually it was Maria Rasputin's husband. Those are the details, I'm sure a bit of the truth is in there somewhere. Sorry I can't find the source.


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We say in German:"To bite the hand which feeds you."

ImperialHighness

We say that in America too! There's even a song about it.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2007, 04:54:50 PM by Annie »

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Re: Her diary- a question
« Reply #18 on: August 06, 2007, 05:33:10 PM »
I went back into the Buxhoeveden threads, and found the source of the blame on poor Bux, repeated in FOTR, actually came from Soloviev.  Some 200,000 rubles raised for the "rescue" of the IF went missing and Soloviev blamed it on Buxhoeveden. Here is what I originally posted:
Grabbed my Sokolov Report, did some quick translation. There is a whole section where he investigated Soloviev thoroughly. Turns out, folks, that Soloviev was arrested in Vladivostok in December 1919 and charged with being a Bolshevik agent. Both he and his wife Matrona (not Maria) Rasputina were convicted based on the overwhelming evidence produced at trial. Here's what Soloviev did:

They used the Rasputin name/connection with Vyroubova and Lili Dehn, and with their unwitting help, set up a network of monarchists in Petrograd and Moscow, headed by Nicholas Evgeneivich Markov, who still had money to help the Imperial Family. They went around telling them the grand tale that they had 300 loyal Russian soldiers in the Ekaterinburg region.  Tatiana Botkina later testified that this was "a crock", that there was not organization of any one at all under Soloviev in Ekaterinburg. Meanwhile, old Mr. S. set up residence in January 1918, exactly at the junction of the railway between Tiumen and Tobolsk. So, he sets himself up as the ONLY central contact point for all assistance and rescue efforts for the Imperial Family, and of course, all these people who are sent out from Petrograd/Moscow are forced by the railway to stop in Tiumen, and of course to see Mr. S. Mr. S selectively filters the people who are permitted to journey to Tobolsk and later Ekaterinburg. Those who he does permit to go are only given permission to go for one day ONLY. Anyone who does not give in to Soloviev's demands is conveniently denounced immediately by Mr. S. and delivered up to the local Bolsheviks for arrest. To Dehn's credit, once she went to Tiumen and met Soloviev in person, she returned "with little confidence in him.  His having left her with the impression of a young man who was audacious to excess and demonstrably avaricious in questions of money."  Soloviev is collecting all the money for the Imperial Family, and not a kopek is actually getting through. Anyone who comes out to investigate is told the "tale", and if they don't accept it, they too are conveniently denounced and handed over to the local Soviet for arrest.

Sokolov upon further background check found out that Soloviev had been involved with the Bolshevik movement from the very first days of the Revolution. Soloviev's own diary revealed that he only married Matrona Rasputin in order to take advantage of the name. Furthermore, Soloviev's diary revealed that fifteen days BEFORE the transfer of the Emperor from Tobolsk, Yakovlev told Soloviev of the exact date: April 12, 1918.


helenazar

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Re: Her diary- a question
« Reply #19 on: August 06, 2007, 05:48:25 PM »
Oh yes, this Soloviev story is a fairly well known fact... I think that it was even recounted by Matriona/Maria Rasputin in her memoirs, if I remember correctly (again it's something I read some years ago and don't own a copy to double check). So the part I don't really understand is how does this story tie Buxhoveden in as the "betrayer" of the IF who took off with their money? I don't really see the connection... Or was it just the fact that Soloviev tried to shift the blame from himself onto someone else? In which case, he is not exactly a reliable source is he, so why would anyone take his accusations seriously, especially since he is the only one who ever came up with them? But these types of "sources" seem to be a regular pattern in FOTR, so I am not surprised it was used...
« Last Edit: August 06, 2007, 05:55:28 PM by Helen_A »

Annie

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Re: Her diary- a question
« Reply #20 on: August 06, 2007, 05:58:02 PM »
How awful to marry her to use Rasputin's name! I can see how using it would be to his advantage with Vyrubova and Dehn who were supporters of his. I knew I'd heard he had something to do with it.  But that's right, you can't really believe him, either. Everyone wants to clear themselves and blame someone else for some reason. I know she ended up in England taming lions, but I forgot what happened to him. She didn't stay with him after that, did she?

I do believe the attacks on Bux can be traced to AA and her supporters. Since AA had said she betrayed the family, they want to prove this as some kind of proof AA was AN, I guess, but there really isn't any proof of it, is there? I told Sophie's story, which came from her own book (though some may not believe her either)
« Last Edit: August 06, 2007, 06:01:10 PM by Annie »

helenazar

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Re: Her diary- a question
« Reply #21 on: August 06, 2007, 06:07:07 PM »
Did Soloviev actually even claim this about Buxhoveden (is there some written documentation of this - like in his diary for example?) or was it just attributed to him randomly? That's always a possibility too...

Annie

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Re: Her diary- a question
« Reply #22 on: August 06, 2007, 07:43:31 PM »
I didn't see anything in that letter, if there is some, where?

and what does this mean?

Tatiana Botkina later testified that this was "a crock", that there was not organization of any one at all under Soloviev in Ekaterinburg.

When did she say this? Did she not know it or was she covering for him?

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Re: Her diary- a question
« Reply #23 on: August 06, 2007, 09:06:01 PM »
Did Soloviev actually even claim this about Buxhoveden (is there some written documentation of this - like in his diary for example?) or was it just attributed to him randomly? That's always a possibility too...

Someone with FOTR will have to answer this. I believe, though may well be mistaken, that Soloviev is the attribution for the "betrayal" allegation against Bux. in FOTR. As I recall, that was how this all came up in the first place.

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Re: Her diary- a question
« Reply #24 on: August 06, 2007, 09:13:08 PM »
Here it is, I found it:

"FOTR page 141. Talking about what happened on the Rus
"Even as these horrors unfolded, another ominous and, in the end, brutally personal situation played itself out. Unknown to the terrified grand duchesses, a previously trusted member of their father's suite willingly betrayed their secrets. On learning that she had apparently kept Soloviev's money, Baroness Buxhoeveden had come under the penetrating gaze of the Bolsheviks, who suspected her in some unkown plot. Two searches of her apartment early on the morning of April 25 presumably failed to disclose the hidden funds, but the increased presure left Buxhoeveden in featrfor her own welfare. "

Well, we now know full well that this is wholly incorrect.  The author of these allegations against Bux. was Soloviev himself. It was probably he himself who ordered the searches, and was himself a Bolshevik agent.  To claim as fact that these allegations are true is irresponsible, at least.  The source itself is a criminal of crimes of moral turpitude, one whose testimony is subject to impeachment in any court of law, and to me, totally unreliable.


Annie

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Re: Her diary- a question
« Reply #25 on: August 06, 2007, 09:18:47 PM »
That isn't even how she left the IF. Her own writings tell a very different story.

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Re: Her diary- a question
« Reply #26 on: August 07, 2007, 04:07:44 PM »
Here is exacty what Sokolov's Report says on the subject, of this "reliable source" Soloviev, who claimed Bux. stole money from the Imperial Family:
Sokolov:

Pg 126. In meeting with the prisoners in Tobolsk, he (Soloviev) he convinced them that he was preparing their salvation.  Soloviev put their fears to rest and made them give up any personal initiative in that regard.

127. Deposition of Tatiana Botkina: Soloviev worked to their (the IF's) ruin.  He occupied the important point in Tyumen, where he gave the directives to Petrograd and Moscow.  He filtered all those who arrived.  He stopped them all, and would not give the authorisation to go to Tobolsk except for one night only, and he would not give this permission except only those who were incapable of working in secret.  In case of any disobedience to his orders he would deliver them up to the Soviet officers, with whom he was on the very best of terms...There was certainly never any organization and the supposed "300 officers" existed only in fiction.

pg 130: Deposition given to Serguiev by an officer in the Empress' personal regiment:" I spent all last winter (1917-18) in Tiumen, where I met Boris Nicholaievich Soloviev, who had married Rasputin's daughter.  He told me he was the head of an organization dedicated to protect the Imperial family, in observing his situation, in the furnishing of everything needed to relieve their meals and comfort, and to take all measure to ward off dangerous people from them. According to Soloviev's promises, anyone sympathetic to his organisation would present themselves to him before undertaking anything to be done for the Imperial family.  "In any case to the contrary" Soloviev said, "I will veto all such disposition and all such action." This "veto" would be accompanied by being turned over to the Soviet authorities.  This was exactly what had happened to two Cavalry officers of the Guard and a woman.  I don't know their names, but I can report to you that this fact was confirmed by Soloviev under oath."

Deposition of Constantine Semyonovich Melnik (husband of Tatiana Botkina): "During my stay in Tobolsk I became convinced that no such organization existed to rescue the Imperial Family; and I learned that the people who shared in their captivity, received only a small part of anything sent to them.   By Soloviev's actions, I learned alot about N** who had been sent by an organization in Petrograd, but had been obliged to stay more than four months in Tyumen, where Soloviev also was. Only one time was N** permitted to go to Tobolsk for 24 hours only, at the moment the Emperor departed.  I asked N** why he had obeyed Soloviev in this.  N** told me that  Soloviev had told him how he had delivered up two officers who had gone to Tobolsk without his permission,  over to the local Tyumen Soviet.  Well, those two had been sent by a Monarchist organization and so Soloviev could not just ignore them.  Soloviev added that he would equally hand over to the Soviets anyone who disobeyed his orders."
pg 131: We see then, that according to the depositions of Markov and Sokolov (no relation to the author), that Soloviev throughout 1917-1918 had ties to Vyroubova.  His sworn declarations, those of his wife, all confirmed by notations in their diaries, proved that he had known Rasputin for a very long time, but their relations became much more frequent after 1915.
   When I deposed Soloviev myself, he tried to convince me that he had been a  genuine monarchist, and that he married Rasputin's daughter for love.
   Here are the facts: The inquest established that, according to numerous testimony, at the moment of the Revolution, Soloviev was an officer in the Second Infantry Regiment. He occupied an important post in the revolutionary government which had formed in the Duma after the Emperor's abdication.  General Potapov (actually a Bolshevik general as we would see) was the most influential person, who admitted this himself, became his aide de camp.
   ...
   I finish this chapter with the following fact: Some fifteen days before the Emperor was transferred to Tobolsk, Soloviev indicated precisely in his diary the exact date for the transfer, 12 April 1918 - the impending date of this was unknown to everyone else.  Do we need further proof of the relationship which existed between Yakovlev and Soloviev?"

helenazar

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Re: Her diary- a question
« Reply #27 on: August 08, 2007, 04:48:05 PM »
Here it is, I found it:

"FOTR page 141. Talking about what happened on the Rus
"Even as these horrors unfolded, another ominous and, in the end, brutally personal situation played itself out. Unknown to the terrified grand duchesses, a previously trusted member of their father's suite willingly betrayed their secrets. On learning that she had apparently kept Soloviev's money, Baroness Buxhoeveden had come under the penetrating gaze of the Bolsheviks, who suspected her in some unkown plot. Two searches of her apartment early on the morning of April 25 presumably failed to disclose the hidden funds, but the increased presure left Buxhoeveden in featrfor her own welfare. "

Well, we now know full well that this is wholly incorrect.  The author of these allegations against Bux. was Soloviev himself. It was probably he himself who ordered the searches, and was himself a Bolshevik agent.  To claim as fact that these allegations are true is irresponsible, at least.  The source itself is a criminal of crimes of moral turpitude, one whose testimony is subject to impeachment in any court of law, and to me, totally unreliable.

So FOTR lists Soloviev as a source for this information (Bux keeping Soloviev's money)? But where exactly did this statement come from, did Soloviev write it in his diary? Or was it one of those "a very reliable source told me that Soloviev said this but I am not at liberty to disclose who it was until 50 years after they die" type deals?  ::)

I was under the impression that it was a known and accepted fact that Soloviev was a scam artist, it sounds like FOTR claims otherwise, and that he was actually a nice guy... For some reason I can't remember this part about Soloviev from when I read it.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2007, 04:54:10 PM by Helen_A »

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Re: Her diary- a question
« Reply #28 on: August 08, 2007, 05:03:09 PM »
Helen, I just don't know more than you do. Again, someone who has a copy of FOTR will have to see if there is a footnote or attribution for the Soloviev claim that Bux. stole his money as is implied by the FOTR passage.  We don't have a copy.

I must agree with you that it is very clear that "if" Soloviev claimed Buxhoeveden stole the money the Vyroubova people sent to Soloviev, it MUST be taken with a quarry of salt, and certainly NOT repeated as gospel truth.

Helen: I found this on the web, on a PDF exceprt of FOTR.  There seem to be footnotes but am not sure. Again, someone with the book will have to verify, but here are the origanal claims giving rise to this assertion:

“I left the money and letters with
her,” Soloviev later said, “which she promised to give to Volkov next
day. We made arrangements for a meeting the following evening and I
went home full of bright hopes.” When he returned the following day,
Buxhoeveden told him that everything had already been smuggled in to
the prisoners, with the exception of a few books and some cologne.
Believing the issue closed, Soloviev returned to Pokrovskoye.

That Soloviev turned this money over to Buxhoeveden on February
21 is confirmed by four separate sources: Soloviev himself; Serge
Markov; Maria Rasputin; and by Staff Captain Lepilin, Hermogen’s
envoy.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2007, 05:19:57 PM by Forum Admin »

helenazar

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Re: Her diary- a question
« Reply #29 on: August 08, 2007, 06:38:31 PM »
Helen: I found this on the web, on a PDF exceprt of FOTR.  There seem to be footnotes but am not sure. Again, someone with the book will have to verify, but here are the origanal claims giving rise to this assertion:

“I left the money and letters with
her,” Soloviev later said, “which she promised to give to Volkov next
day. We made arrangements for a meeting the following evening and I
went home full of bright hopes.” When he returned the following day,
Buxhoeveden told him that everything had already been smuggled in to
the prisoners, with the exception of a few books and some cologne.
Believing the issue closed, Soloviev returned to Pokrovskoye.

That Soloviev turned this money over to Buxhoeveden on February
21 is confirmed by four separate sources: Soloviev himself; Serge
Markov; Maria Rasputin; and by Staff Captain Lepilin, Hermogen’s
envoy.


Hmmm... Would someone who has a copy of FOTR please look up the details of the source of this information, in other words: where, when and to whom did Soloviev, Markov, Maria Rasputin and Lepilin say this? The library I work at only has one copy of FOTR in the entire system, I requested it to be delivered to my location, but it takes about a week to get there.

« Last Edit: August 08, 2007, 06:49:20 PM by Helen_A »