Author Topic: Did Sophie Buxhoeveden Betray the IF?  (Read 46808 times)

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Alixz

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Re: Did Sophie Buxhoeveden Betray the IF?
« Reply #120 on: August 22, 2007, 08:38:28 AM »
Backtracking through foot notes into a bibliography is not an easy task.  I shouldn't say its not easy, but it is time consuming.

This exercise was fun and enlightening.

I know that there are those who will still have doubts, but as for the information that we have been able to find (and I agree that we haven't found it all - for example who is Tatiana Tiumena and General N** - among others) we have come to a responsible conclusion.


helenazar

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Re: Did Sophie Buxhoeveden Betray the IF?
« Reply #121 on: August 22, 2007, 01:29:27 PM »
And thank you for posting the quotes, Alixz, for those of us who didn't have have to the book at the time.

Temperance

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Re: Did Sophie Buxhoeveden Betray the IF?
« Reply #122 on: August 24, 2007, 10:23:17 AM »
So to summarize and to answer the original question: there is no credible evidence that Sophie Buxhoeveden betrayed the IF by embezzling a large sum of money intended for their rescue, as asserted in The Fate of the Romanovs.

I went through this section on more time and I have to agree with you Helen_A. Thanks to everyone who got to the bottom of it. Helen_A, do you or anyone else know where the idea came from the Alexandra wrote in her diary that Sophie betrayed them? I didn't see that in this section.

helenazar

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Re: Did Sophie Buxhoeveden Betray the IF?
« Reply #123 on: August 24, 2007, 10:29:07 AM »
So to summarize and to answer the original question: there is no credible evidence that Sophie Buxhoeveden betrayed the IF by embezzling a large sum of money intended for their rescue, as asserted in The Fate of the Romanovs.

I went through this section on more time and I have to agree with you Helen_A. Thanks to everyone who got to the bottom of it. Helen_A, do you or anyone else know where the idea came from the Alexandra wrote in her diary that Sophie betrayed them? I didn't see that in this section.

It sounds like someone told Annie about this, I am not sure exactly. Maybe Annie can elaborate some more. 

Annie

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Re: Did Sophie Buxhoeveden Betray the IF?
« Reply #124 on: August 24, 2007, 10:54:08 AM »
So to summarize and to answer the original question: there is no credible evidence that Sophie Buxhoeveden betrayed the IF by embezzling a large sum of money intended for their rescue, as asserted in The Fate of the Romanovs.

I went through this section on more time and I have to agree with you Helen_A. Thanks to everyone who got to the bottom of it. Helen_A, do you or anyone else know where the idea came from the Alexandra wrote in her diary that Sophie betrayed them? I didn't see that in this section.

It sounds like someone told Annie about this, I am not sure exactly. Maybe Annie can elaborate some more. 

That person is a very, VERY big supporter of AA ;) But once the posts showed up here saying there was nothing in her diary about it, he quickly switched and said it must have been some letter but didn't know where, or something, doesn't sound like there ever really was anything to it. (it was in PMs not posts)
« Last Edit: August 24, 2007, 10:56:14 AM by Annie »

helenazar

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Re: Did Sophie Buxhoeveden Betray the IF?
« Reply #125 on: August 24, 2007, 11:17:48 AM »
So to summarize and to answer the original question: there is no credible evidence that Sophie Buxhoeveden betrayed the IF by embezzling a large sum of money intended for their rescue, as asserted in The Fate of the Romanovs.

I went through this section on more time and I have to agree with you Helen_A. Thanks to everyone who got to the bottom of it. Helen_A, do you or anyone else know where the idea came from the Alexandra wrote in her diary that Sophie betrayed them? I didn't see that in this section.

It sounds like someone told Annie about this, I am not sure exactly. Maybe Annie can elaborate some more. 

That person is a very, VERY big supporter of AA ;) But once the posts showed up here saying there was nothing in her diary about it, he quickly switched and said it must have been some letter but didn't know where, or something, doesn't sound like there ever really was anything to it. (it was in PMs not posts)

So basically there is nothing to this.

Annie

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Re: Did Sophie Buxhoeveden Betray the IF?
« Reply #126 on: August 24, 2007, 11:20:31 AM »
So to summarize and to answer the original question: there is no credible evidence that Sophie Buxhoeveden betrayed the IF by embezzling a large sum of money intended for their rescue, as asserted in The Fate of the Romanovs.

I went through this section on more time and I have to agree with you Helen_A. Thanks to everyone who got to the bottom of it. Helen_A, do you or anyone else know where the idea came from the Alexandra wrote in her diary that Sophie betrayed them? I didn't see that in this section.

It sounds like someone told Annie about this, I am not sure exactly. Maybe Annie can elaborate some more. 

That person is a very, VERY big supporter of AA ;) But once the posts showed up here saying there was nothing in her diary about it, he quickly switched and said it must have been some letter but didn't know where, or something, doesn't sound like there ever really was anything to it. (it was in PMs not posts)

So basically there is nothing to this.

Not from her diary, not from her letters, and after the investigation done by you, FA and others, nowhere else, either. Sophie is found not guilty. The accusations appear to be nothing more than desperation by AA's supporters trying some way to make something she said come true. (Even the Blue Fairy can't make it come true now, she'd only make their noses grow)
« Last Edit: August 24, 2007, 11:23:33 AM by Annie »

Annie

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Re: Did Sophie Buxhoeveden Betray the IF?
« Reply #127 on: October 25, 2007, 11:12:24 PM »


I don't have a copy of  'How We Tried to Save the Tsaritsa ' by S. Markov [London, 1929], but I do have copies of a 1928 Russian language edition - 'Pokinutaya Tsarskaya Semya ' by Amalthea Verlag, Vienna, Austria - and an old translation of this Russian work in my native language. The Russian edition seems more detailed than the translated edition that I have and perhaps also more detailed than the 1929 English language edition. In the Russian language edition, S. Markov did not state the specific amount of money Soloviev gave to Mademoiselle X either. Soloviev did enter into details, however, about the letters from the IF that Volkov and Sophie B. managed to get out of the house. According to Markov, Soloviev copied the letters and burnt the originals.  :( In S. Markov's account of what Soloviev told him, Soloviev mentioned a detail about Mademoiselle X that seems to have been lost in translation:  Mademoiselle X was 23 years old. Sophie Buxhoevden fitted the profile in other respects, but she was born in 1884 and thus was considerably older than 23 years. It could be a typo. ???

The Russian language edition was supplemented in 1929 with a booklet including an article by N. E. Markov II published in the Dvuglavnyi Orel journal, No. 29, of 7 July 1929, as well as S.V. Markov's answer to this article. Both documents are about money issues, but Sophie B. was not mentioned in them.

I think I found Ms. X!

http://alexanderpalace.org/leftbehind/V.html

From Sophie Buxhoevedon's "Left Behind", Chapter V:

This was a young Jewess, whom I came also to patronise. Mrs. X was proud of being, as she said, one of a family of eight "politicals." All of these had been in prison for the murder of Government officials and other acts of violence, as she boasted to me. She was conscientious, and did not vent her political enmity on the Emperor or any of us while we were her patients.



Sophie refers to the young Jewish woman dentist as Mrs. X. Could this be the same person called Mdm. X by Markov? Why was she called X when everyone else was mentioned by name?

dmitri

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Re: Did Sophie Buxhoeveden Betray the IF?
« Reply #128 on: November 01, 2007, 03:10:44 AM »
Yes it all sounds quite proposterous. Of course the Blue Fairy would understand.

Offline Belochka

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Re: Her diary- a question
« Reply #129 on: November 02, 2007, 02:50:53 AM »

And I guess, who is Kasvinov?   ???

Mark Konstantinovich Kasvinov was a soviet author who wrote "Dvadtsat' tri stupeni vniz" ("Twenty three steps down") that was published in 1989.

The sovietized title relates to the cascading demise of Nikolai II's reign after 23 years in power.

The reference undeniably is soviet in the approach taken, quoting comrades Marx and Lenin as was expected in all soviet work, offering 'supportive' elements for his work relating to Imperial Russia.

(I have a copy)

Margarita
« Last Edit: November 02, 2007, 02:53:34 AM by Belochka »


Faces of Russia is now on Facebook!


http://www.searchfoundationinc.org/

Alixz

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Re: Did Sophie Buxhoeveden Betray the IF?
« Reply #130 on: November 02, 2007, 09:56:31 PM »
Thanks Belochka!

ConstanceMarie

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Re: Did Sophie Buxhoeveden Betray the IF?
« Reply #131 on: May 24, 2009, 10:41:54 AM »
I hate to bump this back up again, but a friend was doing a research project and came upon some new information I thought would really help clear this up once and for all. You've all done a great job of investigation, you should all work for the FBI LOL.

It looks like the issue of the stolen money has been cleared up. Now let's touch on the topic of Buxhoeveden allegedly squealing about the jewels, and the way it was presented.The rumor of her betraying the family has been traced to two culprits mainly Anna Andersen, and Boris Soloviev as explained in this thread.As far as I have ever seen these allegations in this form stem only from one book which was FOTR.  This is what was said on page 142,


As the Grand Duchesses terrified screams filled the deck of the Rus, echoing across the placid waters to the darkness beyond, Buxhoeveden acted. Perhaps in an effort to spare herself the same fate, or to guarantee her later safety, she found Rodionov, telling him not only of the fortune in jewels concealed beneath the clothing of the three young women, but where the items could be found: "The buttons on her coat aren't buttons" she revealed, "they're diamonds. The aigrette on that hat conceals a diamond from the shah of Persia and that belt there..underneath it are ropes of pearls."


First thing we have to consider here is that the "terrified screams" may well not have been true, but only based on the story Gibbes adopted son told since it is not mentioned in any other source, as seen in examination of evidence in other threads. That is not the issue here, and I am not going to get into that and if he lied etc., I merely mention it to lead into the notion that, if there were no screams, the stage being set for her running and telling has no basis. The idea that Buxhoeveden did this on the Rus, or did it at all, appears unique to this one source and no other. Background on this has of course been covered earlier in this thread so now let's move on.

It is not likely that she did tell, otherwise, the Bolsheviks would have been aware of the jewels and would not have been shocked to find them after the executions. The accounts by those involved make this clear, they were unaware of the sewn in items before the shootings:

Yurovsky:
"They shot the daughters but nothing happened, then (Y)Ermakov set the bayonet in motion and that didn't help; then they were finally finished off by being the head. Only in the forest did I discover what hampered the shooting of the daughters.."  (source, Fall of the Romanovs, Steinberg and Krustalev, p.359)"some of Yermakov's people started to pull at the girls' blouses where they discovered the valuables." ..."Things that had been sewn into the daughters' and Alexandra's clothing were discovered when the bodies began to be undressed..The daughters had bodices made up of diamonds and other precious stones that served not just as a receptacle for valuables but as protective armor. This is why neither bullets nor bayonets yielded results during the shooting and bayonet blows..there turned out to be eighteen pounds of such valuables." Fall of The Romanovs pages 361-62


So there we have it, Yurovsky was completely surprised to see the sewn in jewels, and discovered their location 'only in the forest' by his own words.

The Boshevik Medevdev remarked "as the girls started to be undressed, in the places where the corsets had been torn by bullets, diamonds could be seen. The mens' eyes literally lit up." (Nicholas and Alexandra: A Lifelong Passion, page 637)

Ermakov said once that it was only later that they realized the things were stuffed with jewels and acted to repel bullets(Dead Men Do Tell Tales, William Maples, page 244)

The pearl belt Buxhoeveden supposedly ratted out was not discovered until the bodies were being taken out to the truck, and to their surpise it fell out (Lost Fortune of the Tsars, William Clarke, pages 77-78)

Another item mentioned, the large diamonds disguised as buttons, did fool the Bolsheviks who were clearly unaware of them. Some of them went so unnoticed they were later found by the Whites, trampled into the mud at the gravesite. It was only when former servants Toudleberg and Esberg identified them that anyone had the slightest idea what they were. (Last Days of the Romanovs, Robert Wilton, pages 344-345) Had the Bolsheviks been alerted to look for covered buttons, they would not have ended up with the discarded trash, would they? Especially not since Yurovsky had commented on the men being eager to steal things off the bodies once they saw them. The buttons meant nothing to the Bolsheviks, meaning they had not been told about them.

Another item of interest: "Olga wore a satchel around her neck with some special gems and wore several ropes of pearls concealed across her shoulders. The manner in which the concealment effected misled the superficial search of the bodies at the (Ipatiev) house." (Last Days p344)

These quotes have to tell us that the claim on page 142 that "word of this hidden cache of jewels spread quickly among Ekaterinburg Bolsheviks" could not have been accurate. They did not know about them until the family was dead. There is too much evidence to prove this fact in various published sources as opposed to one unpublished one.

As a  matter of fact, the Bolsheviks didn't even need anyone to inform about the jewels, as they were not stupid and had expected their wealthy prisoners to be packing valuables. There is much evidence that they had been searching them and confiscating things since Nicholas, Alexandra and Maria had arrived in Ekaterinburg. This is told on page 30 of Last Days of the Romanovs and was the reason Alexandra let the girls know they had to sew the "medicines" into the clothes to hide them.

The Bolsheviks regularly plundered the family's valuables from the beginning, as described in Lost Fortune of the Tsars in the chapter called "Plunder." On page 76, we learn that stuff in storeroom was constantly pilfered, Bolsheviks plundered right in front of the family and Avdiev did nothing to stop it. Avdiev's drunken parties were frequently followed by raids on the storeroom where the Romanov goods were stored (Klier and Mingay Quest for Anastasia page 34) The family was subjected to frequent and arbitrary confiscations and pilfering of personal items  and this was even done before the passengers on the Rus ever arrived.(Klier and Mingay page 33) Most of their majesties' belongings went to the soviet or the lodgings of the commisars themselves and never returned'(Lost Fortune p75) The Bolsheviks' takeover reduced the possessions of the family that had been brought from Tobolsk to Ekaterinburg. (Lost Fortune p.100)

to be continued in a second post


 

ConstanceMarie

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Re: Did Sophie Buxhoeveden Betray the IF?
« Reply #132 on: May 24, 2009, 10:42:36 AM »

Alexandra's diary of July 4,1918 tells how their jewels had been taken from them, and lists the theft of them as a possible reason that Avdiev and his men were replaced:

Diary of Alexandra Feodorovna
July 4. A new Commandant [Yurovski]. All the inner sentries are gone. (Probably one has discovered that they have taken all our things out of the loft) - the Commandant and his young assistant made us show all our jewels we had on and the younger one noted all down and then they were taken from us. Why? For how long? Where?-I do not know-they left me only two bracelets from Uncle Leopold [the late Duke of Albany] which I cannot take off, and left each of the children the bracelets we gave them, and which cannot be slipped off, also N's engagement ring, which he could not take off. They took away our keys from our boxes in the loft, which they had still left us - but promised to return them. Very hot, went early to bed, as I was frightfully tired and had pains in the heart.
July 5. The Commandant came with our jewels, sealed them up in our presence and left them on our table. He will come every day to see that we have not opened the parcel.


Once Yurovsky took over, he made a complete list of the family's jewels and other valuables, cataloged them and checked them almost every day.(Lost Fortune of the Tsars p.100)  It is evident that, considering all the searches, stealing, cataloging and checking, if the Bolsheviks had been aware of the ones in the clothing, those jewels would not have escaped, either. With this proof, we can safely say, they were unaware, meaning Buxhoeveden did not tell anyone about any jewels.

Further fact-checking reveals another interesting fly in the ointment, from FOTR page 142 again

Two further members of the Romanov household also betrayed the I family telling both bux and the bolsheviks what they knew of the hidden jewels. Countess Hendrikova's maid, Alexandrine Nikolaeva, and the maid Anna Romanova. When the prisoners arrived in Ekaterinburg, Rodionov reported this news to the Ural regional soviet, and all three women were questioned the same day. Like Buxhoeveden, Nikolaeva crumbled under pressure, according to Ural Regional Soviet member Paul Bykov, 'revealing where these things could be found.'

A big problem with this is that Anna Romanova stayed in Tobolsk and never made the trip to Ekaterinburg. Her name is not on Kobylinski's list of those who traveled onto Ekaterinburg, and is specifically mentioned by name as one who remained in Tobolsk.(Last Days of the Romanovs, page 125) Therefore, she could not have been on the Rus, and could not have been interrogated in Ekaterinburg as implied. The other alleged accomplice in squealing, said to be Hendrikova's maid Alexandrine Nikoleava, also does not appear on the list of those who left for Ekaterinburg. As a matter of fact, this name appears literally nowhere else but in these accusations. No such person was listed as being with the family, and did not go to Ekaterinburg so she couldn't have been questioned there by the Ural Soviet, either.. A VICTORINE Nikolaevna, listed as a ward (minor orphan charge) not maid of Hendrikova did come to Tobolsk with Hendrikova but did not leave with her. This leaves another hole in the story.

Anna Romanova, who had arrived with Bux in Tobolsk, also readily disclosed the secrets of the family she had served; she later married a Bolshevik commisar and remained in the USSR.

This is true, but  it had nothing to do with Buxhoeveden or any jewels. It was Soloviev and the money. From Nicholas and Alexandra, pages 464-467 or 489-491 in the paperback:

Soloviev established contact with the empress through one of her maids, Romanova, who had an apartment in Tobolsk. Though her he passed notes and part of the money. He used Romanova to raise their hopes by promising '(Father) Gregory's family and friends are active'. He arranged through her to have one of the IF give a hand signal showing support for the plan...
..as soon as the family left he (Soloviev) hurried to talk to Romanova, who later married a Bolshevik commisar.


Ah. This brings us back to Soloviev, which as established earlier in this thread, was the source of the original rumors against Buxhoeveden for stealing money he took!

For the record, I also saw it mentioned here that the Mademoiselle X he allegedly gave things to came later to Tobolsk, did not get to live the house but had an apt. in town. This describes Romanova, who came later when Buxhoeveden and another maid Anna Ultkin arrived later. She was younger than Buxhoeveden which may account for the age given of 23 years. As described in the accounts by Bulygin, Romanova did have contact with the family, though she did not live with them. Showing Soloviev coming to talk to her after the family was gone is yet more proof she did not go to Ekaterinburg. She did indeed betray the family, but not over jewels. She did in fact marry a Bolshevik commisar.

I hope this clears up a few of the questions about poor old Sophie Bux. and helps to save her reputation. Now her name should be cleared on both the money grabbing and the jewel squealing. A disclaimer, I am only relaying this and do not intend to fight on the subject. While there is sufficient evidence to discount the allegations as false, I offer no theory nor speculation on how they came to be wrong. Surely Soloviev is one reason. I have no further comment. The information is here, take it or leave it. Thank you for your time.

Offline Terence

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Re: Did Sophie Buxhoeveden Betray the IF?
« Reply #133 on: May 24, 2009, 11:08:33 PM »
Thanks for your recent summations ConstanceMarie.

It never made sense that Sophie B. betrayed them, yet they were surprised to find the jewels when the murders occurred?

Very well put, and explained w/ great detail.

T

wox24

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Re: Her diary- a question
« Reply #134 on: December 17, 2009, 04:23:54 AM »
Sophie was accused of betraying the family by taking money from them and later informing their guards that the Romanov children had sewed jewels into their clothing.(King, Greg, and Wilson, Penny, The Fate of the Romanovs)
Buxhoeveden borrowed 1,300 rubles from the Romanov childrens' tutor Charles Sydney Gibbes to escape Russia. Though she told him she'd return the money, she never did. "I knew she was greedy, but I never knew she'd go that far!" Gibbes wrote to the French tutor Pierre Gilliard.(King and Wilson, p. 505)
She was not trusted by the Tsar's sister, Grand Duchess Xenia Alexandrovna of Russia, who warned Victoria that "Isa" (Sophies nickname) was not to be trusted later, when Sophie lived at Hemmelmark for some time.
Sophie was the one to identify Franziska Schanzkovsky, the so called Anastasia during the first time Franziska stayed at Dallheim. It was when Franziska said she was Tatiana. Sophie did not recognize any similarity.
I think maybe she took the money from the family, who knows? She later made good profit with her books about them, too. Do you think Alix would have liked to read those books about her and her family life? I do not think so.
We say in German:"To bite the hand which feeds you."

ImperialHighness

I don`t know who thought out this stupidity. Bolsheviks, which "knew" about jewels, not only took their corsages but still fire at grand duchess with them. Excelent logic. ;)