Princess Thyra's Illegitimate Daughter

[Eric_Lowe]

If you say that and let that be. That information was not been publized at least not to the English press.

[Marlene]

Note to Marlene: sometimes you need to use the hammer!   
Last week, I mentioned that you were studying to be an Orthodox priest, which you denied... I knew I had heard this from several people as you were seen wearing Russian Orthodox robes at a recent Royalty Digest conference ... 

If you say that and let that be. That information was not been publized at least not to the English press.

[Eric_Lowe]

Hahaha....

That was a Chinese robe...I bought it in Shanghai Tang (the store that sell mock old Chinese apparal opened Mr. Tang, who incidently was a close friend to Fergie, Duchess of York). Thanks for keeping tabs on me.

[kmerov]

Yes, the story was first published by Bo Bramsen in 1975, and as mentioned, he didn't say where he god his sources from, and what they were, which isn't very god from an academic  point of view (and his two volumes are wonderful but not without faults).
The Hannovers became very upset and denied the story, and it generated a debate in the news papers at that time. I'm not sure if any royal person has confirmed Thyra giving birth to a daughter outside marriage.   

[Marlene]

The material I read and the people to whom I posted the question afterwards (members of the family) did not deny it, actually.  This was in the 1980s.

Yes, the story was first published by Bo Bramsen in 1975, and as mentioned, he didn't say where he god his sources from, and what they were, which isn't very god from an academic  point of view (and his two volumes are wonderful but not without faults).
The Hannovers became very upset and denied the story, and it generated a debate in the news papers at that time. I'm not sure if any royal person has confirmed Thyra giving birth to a daughter outside marriage.   

[Eric_Lowe]

Thanks Kmerov for confirming my doubts. I heard similar denials from different sources. I think some members of the family might admit it privately to a resercher (like Marlene), but quite different from having it made public in book form or newspaper.

[kmerov]

You are welcome Eric.

I don't know how the family stands on the issue today, but when it was first published they denied it. That was way back in 1975, so they could have changed their minds afterwards about the story itself, or just admitting it to outsiders.

[Eric_Lowe]

I think Anna Leche's book and video on the issue broke the silence. One member of the Hanover family did talk about Thyra on camera.

[Naslednik Norvezhskiy]

Kate was fathered by Vilhelm Frimann Marcher. Though I don't speak Danish, I know enough German to guess that "Frimann" is a cognate of the German word "Freiherr," meaning Baron.

No, German Freiherr is in Danish friherre, meaning "free lord". Frimann is just a bourgeois surname meaning "free man". The most famous Frimann was Norwegian priest and poet Claus Frimann (1746–1829). Interestingly Vilhelm's grandfather was a priest and born in Bergen, Norway in 1748, so perhaps he was named in honour of his grandfather's famous friend/collegue/compatriot.

I too have always been curious about Vilhelm Frimann Marcher's background. I was thus very happy when I found this Danish genealogical link with all his known ancestors: Vilhelm Frimann Marcher
Turns out that he had a lot of siblings and that Frimann just was a middle name with no direct ancestral ties. His parents were Christine Petersen and Eiler Christian Hansen Marcher. His mother's family seems to be rather unknown and his father's family just bourgeois. In the 17th century, when Scania became Swedish, they moved from Malmö to the island of Bornholm and assumed the name Marcher. His grandfather was a priest and his father a large-scale farmer I guess, since he leased (from the Counts Scheel) Trudsholm manor on Zealand, where Vilhelm was born. So he was "to the manor born", but as a bourgeois to a leased manor....

However, his father Eiler Christian and great grandfather Eiler Holch Hansen Marcher both seem to have been named in honour of the family's noble link: Vilhelm's great great grandmother Elisabeth Sophie Eilersdatter Holch or Holck (1693-1774). She was born as daughter of Baron Eiler Holck, at the magnificent castle of Holckenhavn. on Fyn, which Christian V gave his Governor of Kronborg (probably as compensation for lost estates in Scania) after it was confiscated from Christian IV's treacherous daughter and son-in-law Leonora Christine and Corfitz Ulfeldt. Through the Holck link the Marcher family descends from many ancient Scandinavian noble families, possibly also from royalty.

BTW Elisabeth Holck's mother Baroness Ingeborg Holck née Vind was divorced from her husband and exiled to the Marcher's ancestral home Bornholm for "frivolity"! Her maternal grandfather was the famous Admiral Ove Gjedde. And her brother Frederik Vind was an ancestor of the Danish magnates the Counts Krag-Juel-Vind-Frijs. Here is a wonderful illustrated genealogy of the Barons Holck with interactive links to other families: Holck

[kmerov]

We have discussed Thyras daughter in another thread recently, but I thought this was the most relevant thread to post some pictures of one claimant, Maria or Kate Pløyen-Holstein.

Maria/Kate with her adoptive mother in 1876.

[kmerov]

Maria/Kate in 1896.


Her husband, Frode Pløyen-Holstein.

[kmerov]

A repost, but just to compare, the alleged father, Vilhelm Marcher in 1871.

[redduchess]

Wow!!! 
You guys truly know where and how to dig . . .  That's a father and daughter I never thought I 'd see...

[Eric_Lowe]

Yes. The first time I saw those pics of the alleged daughter of Thyra.

[Naslednik Norvezhskiy]

In 1902 Marie Kathrine Jørgensen married Lieutenant Frode Hjalmar Christian Pløyen von Holstein (1872 - 1942), who was the son of a kammerjunker  (court rank between chamber page and chamberlain, also found in Russia as камер-юнкер) and customs manager, was an infirm diabetic and a distant relative of the Counts Holstein (of Holsteinborg and Ledreborg). They lived in the main building of the minor manor Tangegård on southeastern Funen. Interestingly the owner of Tangegård was Hannibal Sehested, Chamberlain, Court Hunting Master and the last prime minister in Christian IX's unparliamentary regime until the Change of System in 1901... Were his tenants a state secret? Was it a grace-and-favour residence, did they pay rent or did someone pay it for them...?

Marie Kathrine and her Frode were childless. If she ever met the RF I don't know at all, but given that the frame of her quiet life was provided by the noble Sehested family with their court connections, I am sure it would have been easy to arrange discreet meetings.

interestingly that quiet genteel frame must have been threatened when the new owner, Hannibal Sehested's nephew Jørgen Sehested was found guilty of "conspiracy with the enemy" after WW2 and sentenced to some years of prison and confiscation of half of his property. This meant that Tangegård was taken over by the State in the 1960s. It was delayed because his cousin Helga Sehested held a life tenancy. A maternal nephew of a royal personal chaplain (Hans Mathias Fenger), she was a skilled agriculturist and pioneer woman farmer who ran the manor together with her lesbian? co-habitant Elisabeth von Holstein (NB! how was she related to Frode?), according to this interesting pdf about the manor.

Can you imagine the headlines this could have made in a less respectful time and place!?

"HOW FORMER PRIME MINISTER'S NAZI NEPHEW AND THE LESBIAN NIECE OF THE KING'S PERSONAL CHAPLAIN SHELTERED THE ROYAL FAMILY'S DIRTY LITTLE SECRET"!