Nicholas II & Matilda Kschessinska - her love affairs with his cousins

[Kalafrana]

I wouldn't call Mathilde Kschessinska a hooker (to my English ear, that mean a prostitute). However, she seems to have played off two powerful men against one another to her own profit for a very long period (and either she kept them guessing about young Vladimir's true paternity or she didn't know herself which Grand Duke was the father - poor Vladimir). To my somewhat puritanical mind, that's a pretty immoral way to behave.

Ann

[Alixz]

Many a young ballerina was the mistress of many a grand duke and/or emperor for that matter.

Alexander III pushed Nicholas toward Mathilde when both were very young.  At least that is the way it is presented in Mathilde's books and every other book that quotes her.

After he left her (it was inevitable because of his station) to marry Alix, Mathilde, in my opinion, tried to stay close to the Imperial Family and even though she could have chosen any man as her companion, she did choose cousins of Nicholas.

She may not have known who the father of her son was, it depends on with whom she was sharing her charms with at the time and if she was "spreading the wealth" around, she truly might not have known.  I just wonder if the two men who are in the running would have allowed her to be with both of them during the same time period.  Would they have had no indignation?

In her own book Dancing in Petersburg Kschessinska speaks of Andrei on page 103 and says "after our son was born".  It seems that in her memoirs, she is telling us that Andrei was the father.

I know that she took good care of her own family and she did support Andrei in Paris with teaching ballet for many years.  She may have had an easy life before the revolution, but she suffered as much as any other refugee after she fled Russia.

But Kschessinska was also vain and very self-important.  She was good and she and everyone else knew it.  She certainly was not humble.  She reveled in her own success and was sure to "up stage" anyone who might have the audacity to be better than she was.

[LisaDavidson]

I do not doubt that "Little K" was somewhat narcissistic, and had the faults that many artists do as have been detailed here. What seemed a bit much to me was to suggest that she had to "drain men for benefits" which sounded rather misogynistic to me, especially in light of how hard she had to work in the last half of her life.

Many men and women choose well to do partners - Empress Alexandra being one of them in Imperial Russia. That does not necessarily mean that they are interested only in "benefits" which will come to them as a result. Our reasons for choosing partners are often highly complex.

In MK's case, the Emperor asked his cousin and friend, Grand Duke Serge Mikhailovich, to look after his former mistress. Nicholas II wanted to make sure she was treated well even though he had fallen in love, and married elsewhere. The Grand Duke did just this at first, and later established a more familial relationship with her and her son. From his writings, he thought of her as a wife. Their cousin, Andrei seems to have entered the picture somewhat later and of course married her in exile.

While it is entirely possible that she was the type of femme fatale that others have described, it is also possible that she fell in love with Nicholas, Serge, and Andre at different times and did not engage in any heavy duty manipulations - just being a free spirit and an artist.

Again, just my opinion!

[Alixz]

What would make Nicholas think that she needed a protector?

How would she be mistreated or not treated nice just because he had to dump her?

From reading her life story it looks like Mathilde never had any problem getting protectors or taking care of herself.

[LisaDavidson]

Good questions, Alixz!

From what I have read of Nicholas' diaries and letters, he seemed to feel very guilty about their sexual liaison, so I suspect that Nicholas' desire to protect her was moire indicative of how he felt about women in general than anything to do with Kschessinskya! I agree, the woman seems to have taken good care of herself, but that's not how the Emperor saw women!

Nicholas' personal morals were very conservative, and from what I can surmise, he considered that since he had taken her virginity, that she was owed his protection. This too I think made him inclined to honor her requests that were made directly to him from time to time.

Women at that time who had sex without marriage were known as "soiled doves" - Nicholas' conscience probably believed she would be shunned after he set her aside.

[RealAnastasia]

I wouldn't call Mathilde Kschessinska a hooker (to my English ear, that mean a prostitute). However, she seems to have played off two powerful men against one another to her own profit for a very long period (and either she kept them guessing about young Vladimir's true paternity or she didn't know herself which Grand Duke was the father - poor Vladimir). To my somewhat puritanical mind, that's a pretty immoral way to behave.

Ann

I share your opinion. You've said what I wanted to say using much less words. Sometimes I don't know how to explain myself without beimg too long. Bravo!

RealAnastasia.

[Carolath Habsburg]

 

I wouldn't call Mathilde Kschessinska a hooker (to my English ear, that mean a prostitute). However, she seems to have played off two powerful men against one another to her own profit for a very long period (and either she kept them guessing about young Vladimir's true paternity or she didn't know herself which Grand Duke was the father - poor Vladimir). To my somewhat puritanical mind, that's a pretty immoral way to behave.

Ann

My opinion too and i dont find it anything mysoginist. No one is saying she didnt work hard during her life but did she used men to get benefits???! yes she did. Being againts that is being mysoginist?. I dont think so

BTW soiled dove was used worldwide? i thought it was the name of the Far west prostitutes...

[LisaDavidson]

I have no idea about the history of the term soiled dove. It was just an attempt of mine to politely say "prostitute" which is the meaning of the term. And certainly many people in the 1890s had this opinion about women who had sex before marriage, regardless of the financial basis of the liaison.

To hopefully clear this up, if you are saying that MK had sex with 2 grand dukes for financially benefit, you are calling her a prostitute/hooker/soiled dove and you are certainly entitled to your opinion. I happen to disagree, but reasonable people can agree to disagree, can't they and so shall we?

As far as the nature of your comment (being misogynistic), I did not intend to offend you or anyone else. It is my opinion of someone saying that. Because it is assumed by chauvinists that women cannot earn their own money so must sink to the level of prostitution to "earn benefits". However, I think you are correct that one could hold an opinion that a women was acting like a prostitute without necessarily being "anti-woman", so with that said, I think it only fair that I retract my opinion of your opinion being anti woman. Agreed?

I always try to be careful about what I say on the Forum because sometimes, if I do not state "this is my opinion", I would not want someone thinking that I was acting as a Moderator when joining into a discussion.

[Carolath Habsburg]

Im not saying she had sex with two men for finantial benefit. She had a whole relationship with them , beyond sex as other women AKA courtesans of the era.  Prostitute is a woman who charges for sex, only sex and sexual favours.  

As far as i know that wasnt her profession , she was a talented dancer who had lovers from who she had benefits (and thats a fact)

I wouldnt say Mathilde was a "soiled dove", which is the term used to identify far west prostitutes. According the meaning, she can be considered a "Courtesan"

"As a result, in Renaissance usage, the Italian word "cortigiana", feminine of "cortigiano" (courtier) came to refer to "the ruler's mistress", and then to a well-educated and independent woman of free morals, eventually a trained artisan of dance and singing, especially one associated with wealthy, powerful, or upper-class men who provided luxuries and status in exchange for companionship"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courtesan

[Alixz]

All of this is very interesting.  IMHO, Kschenssinska, in fact, was one of the best if not the best dance of her era.  She made a handsome salary as a dancer.  She did not need to be supported by anyone while she danced and before the revolution took so much of her property.

However, IMHO, Nicholas asked his cousin Sergei to "look after" her and she didn't turn the offer down.  I have an inner feeling that staying close to the Imperial Family was in her best interests not only for security but to have a channel to connect her to Nicholas.

In all of the books I have read about her, she did ask for "favors" from the Tsar when she wanted something that she had trouble getting on her own.  He almost always complied with her requests.

Kschessinska and Nicholas kept an open line of communication after his marriage to Alex.  Not open in the sense that they were on the telephone at all times of the day, but the line of communication was never severed.

By becoming a courtesan to first Serge and then to Grand Duke Andrei, and not marrying either until she married Andrei after the Revolution in Paris, she kept her independent status, was supported and comforted, received a lavish life style, and still had a close connection to the one man whom she had loved first and best but could never have.

[LisaDavidson]

I don't think that dancers in the Imperial Ballet were well paid at first, which is why some sought "protectors". They were expected to work off the considerable cost of their training for about 10 years. After that, they could join other ballets or negotiate newer and more lucrative contracts. I think that MK did all of the above.

[TimM]

I can believe that Nicky may have kept in touch with Matilda.  However, that is as far as it went.  He would never cheat on Alix.  The man had his flaws, but he was a good husband and father.

[Naslednik]

Sorry to come into this interesting discussion late. 
Alixz said "Alexander III pushed Nicholas toward Mathilde when both were very young.  At least that is the way it is presented in Mathilde's books and every other book that quotes her."

It is so funny how poor Nicholas has been, well, neutered by history.  Mathilde does say that AIII seated her next to Nicholas, and
joked about flirting, yet that is hardly Alexander III pushing them together.  But she also said that Nicholas came to her house incognito, as Volkov, a hussar officer.  That takes a bit of determination given his status.  No doubt Nicholas had plenty of desire and incentive to see Mathilde
all on his own, without trying to prove some level of manliness to his father!  But that is what the gossips say (Prss. Radziwill?) and
the revolution has cast this brain fog on our collective thinking, don't you think?  We also know that he had plenty of healthy
interest in Alix and other women/girls (Toria, a bit).  So writers saying that his father had to push him toward women was probably
more of an attempt by contemporary gossips to make him seem weak in all ways, politically and privately.

About needing a Protector:  I am a musician, and the art world is cut-throat.  Even tho' Mathilde had already
scored big in Sleeping Beauty by the time AIII died, her career could still have been slowed down by jealous dancers or administrators.
Losing Nicholas and Alexander III at the same time did make her vulnerable, I think, and the Italian dancers still held rank.
And dancers' bodies age, so she could not afford to lose time to political infighting if she wanted to outdance all the Italian Prima
ballerinas and become the first Russian Prima Ballerina Assoluta. 

[Alixz]

I think it was Robert Massie in his ever prevalent Nicholas & Alexandra who posited that Nicholas was pushed toward Mathilde by his father.  I have never looked for the source of that comment.

Nicholas may have been shy even as a young Hussar.  He may have needed a "nudge".  However, because Alexander III and Marie Feodorovna knew that the relationship with Mathilde would come to nothing, they could either revel in their son becoming more assured or turn a blind eye.

It was not at all unusual for young men to "dally" before they found the woman of their dreams.  It was not unusual for a powerful father to provide his heir with the avenue toward that dalliance.

Once Nicholas had taken up the chase, he may well have also felt more comfortable and less shy about pursuing Mathilde as he would have known that his parents did not disapprove.  Having backing in an endeavor provides one with a lot of confidence.

It is true that he pursued other women, but not to the extent that he pursued Alix.  In that he went against all that his parents asked of him.  I suppose that showed strength and from a romantic point of view as we look at the "love that cost an empire" we may see that as a good strength.  

Or not - as we know what that love did cost not only the Imperial family but the dynasty and the people of Russia.  However, Nicholas did not have the knowledge that we have today and so made his choices with the information that he had.

But he put selfish considerations ahead of the considerations of his station in life and his future and the future of Russia.  Strength can be romanticized especially when the strength is in the face of resistance to love.  Is that strength or plain bullheadedness?

[Naslednik]

This is interesting, Alixz (if we are talking about the same thing).

Once Nicholas had taken up the chase, he may well have also felt more comfortable and less shy about pursuing Mathilde as he would have known that his parents did not disapprove.  Having backing in an endeavor provides one with a lot of confidence.

I agree -- probably his father's comfort in joking about not flirting with a girl 'below his station' surely made Nicholas realize that he could have at least a mild social intimacy with Kschessinska.  Clearly he took it farther than that!  This is one reason I think he was a pretty normal fellow, even if he was tormented more than his Army peers were by the idea of ruining a woman.

It is odd that in one of Ksenia's letters to Gyorgy (I think) she mentions how fortunate it is that Alexander III and Marie F have not found out about Malechka.  How could they not have known?  Security police must have monitored Nicholas' comings and goings, and any court has eyes everywhere so that no aspect of your life is truly private.  I really think that his parents must have known or suspected the extent of the relationship.

Now you say something interesting about strength, and selfish considerations.  Do you mean that he was bullheaded in resisting his parents wish to have him marry someone other than Alix?  I know this is off topic.  My feeling on that idea is that Nicholas knew himself pretty well, and he knew very well what his life as Tsar would be.  I think that he felt he simply couldn't carry out the task of being Tsar without the depth of support he would get from Alix.  His parents must have pointed out how well they worked as a couple and as sovereigns, although they never expected to marry.  But I can imagine Nicholas seeing himself as far softer, vulnerable and sensitive (in the good sense) than his father, and needing the security of a deeply loving wife.